Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Cory

You claim that FIRST is not all about winning, but really you're just saying that it shouldn't be about the good teams winning-it should be about the teams you feel are disadvantaged winning.

Fuzzy1718, Cory is absolutely correct. You might not be thinking it, but you're definitely saying it. Try not to get defensive and respond with something like "don't put words in my mouth". His statement here is a straightforward interpretation of the words which you wrote. Regardless of the intent behind them, it's the words themselves which we read.

So if that's not what you meant, rephrase it so that it says more clearly what you want us to read. (If it is what you meant, never mind.)

[Arefin Bari]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

Mentors let me her wha the students have to say I don't care of your opionions, your not the focus of FIRST, your students are.

Josh, other mentors who have replied to your comments have been very nice about the topic and tried to make you understand, but I am going to be very blunt. I have never imagined that I would hear this phrase from any student in my involvement of FIRST. You bring up valid points in your posts but this sentence just threw me off. I am very insulted and I have no pity for you or your team for that matter. The interest I would have to walk into your pit and check your robot and team out has been demolished by your comment. I hope one of your mentors/teachers check your posts out in this thread and help you understand where all the other mentors are coming from.

Now about your concerns, The teams that feel that they aren't doing "too well," and "not getting picked;" ask them to build a robot that will be dominant on the field. I am sure they will get picked.

Teams who are low on funding should look up to veteran powerhouses who travel to quite a few regionals every year and earn their golds. The reason they are able to accomplish such things is because of their sponsors, mentors, parents and their students who spend countless hours making their team what they are. They don't only strive for new corporate sponsors, they know how to keep their relationship with them.

If you ever get a chance, stick around with a "veteran powerhouse" for a regional competition and see how they function throughout the event. I am very sure that your opinion on many things will change.

Below are two things I would like to share with you.

There has been one mentor who has been posting in this thread. Their robot is gorgeous and it's functionality blew everyones' mind away this past season. I have spoken to him throughout the build season and I know that he spent at least 10 hours everyday in the machine shop with his students machining parts for the robot. Without him, the team probably wouldn't perform as well as they did. It's the mentors who show you the right path and show you the path of solution when you are stuck.

Last week, I was up in NJ at the J&J headquarter with all the FIRST teams that are sponsored by J&J. There were teams from Brazil and Puerto Rico who attended this 6 hours event to show their appreciation to all their mentors and their sponsor. During that event, I was talking to a team leader (student) of a local team from Florida. He is great and a smart kid. He wants his team to be a student ran team. I had a conversation with him about how mentors can help him. At first, he was hesitating on mentors helping with the robot or the team for that matter, but after an explanation of how students and mentors can work together to build a dominating machine; he put his hand out to shake my hand and invited me to join his team and asked me to find him local mentors who would be able to help them.

You are nothing without a mentor/teacher. I thought I knew everything when I was a sophomore in high school and I thought I could design a better gearbox and a robot than the mentors could. Heck, half the designs I have done were revised by some of the mentors who posted in this thread. There have been times when I got mad because my mentors didn't listen to me. As I grew up, I saw where they were coming from and how right they were. I wouldn't be able to be a mentor if I didn't idolize them and follow certain things that they have done.

[fuzzy1718]

What I mean by that is something that FIRST has obviously thought about in qualifying by adding match points. A regional isn't all about going out there and blowing other teams out of the water; it is about going out there and seeing who has the better robot. All I'm saying by that is I would like to see teams pair up to make the playoffs more of an unknown. The fact that right after alliance selection, at the regionals that we have attended, I could tell you who was in the finals and be right 2/3 times, tells you something. I have only been around FRC for 2 years, so it isn't like I have watched these teams a ton.

Is it better to go in knowing that you are going to win or being evenly match with your oponent?

[Molten]

Okay, quick message to all who think it isn't fair:
Who cares? FIRST is about preparing us for life in the future. In all honesty, life isn't fair. I believe that it is more accurate and better preparation, if FIRST isn't fair. If you have to work even harder to have a chance at winning, that is a good thing. Anyone who wants it, can have the easy life. I want the life worth living.

Quick message to all who think it is fair:
Who cares? It doesn't matter if someone believes that it isn't fair. All that matters is that you are learning from FIRST. If a company does extremely well, people look into it for foul play. Some will dislike a company just because it is doing well and because it is putting other companies out of business.(Think Wal-mart) This is exactly what is happening in FIRST. You (or other teams) are doing well, and are getting questioned for it. It happens, as long as there isn't any foul play to find (as I'm sure there isn't) then there is no reason to worry or debate.

Overall summary to all:
Who cares? It doesn't matter whether it is fair or not for whatever reason.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

What I mean by that is something that FIRST has obviously thought about in qualifying by adding match points. A regional isn't all about going out there and blowing other teams out of the water; it is about going out there and seeing who has the better robot. All I'm saying by that is I would like to see teams pair up to make the playoffs more of an unknown. The fact that right after alliance selection, at the regionals that we have attended, I could tell you who was in the finals and be right 2/3 times, tells you something. I have only been around FRC for 2 years, so it isn't like I have watched these teams a ton.

Is it better to go in knowing that you are going to win or being evenly match with your oponent?

So, would you rather have random partners for eliminations? Or go back to the old days, where, as I understand it, your first partner was chosen for you? How about unlimited declines? Or how about 2003, where if you won the first elimination match by enough, you didn't have to win the second, because you had victory in the bag?

If the "better robot" blows "other teams out of the water", then what are you going to do about it? "Go build a better robot!" is my answer. Yours seems to be "Break up any chance for them to do well."

And remember, anything can happen in eliminations. A chain breaks, a robot tips, penalties... Anything could knock the best team/alliance out of contention.

Incidentally, I've been in/around FIRST for about 10 years now, and I can tell you two or three teams that will be in the L.A. regional eliminations next year if they go, right now, and most likely be right. Does that mean anything? No. All it means is that I know which teams are dominant in my area. Which teams are looked up to...copied...imitated...asked to pick team xyz that's having a bad weekend...all that sort of thing. These teams are also some of the most helpful in the area, sharing know-how, shops, and abilities with other teams. Funny that the dominant teams are apparently trying to lose their dominance, don't you think? Yet somehow, they never do.

[Akash Rastogi]

One thing I might add please:

It is also up to the lesser performing robot's team to show the higher seeded and dominant team how they would be an asset to an alliance. The robots aren't always they greatest thing out on the field, but a lot of teams get picked because of their ability to cooperate with other teams and strategize in order to win. A lot of teams I know don't know how to showcase those specific abilities, which, in my mind, is also a huge component in making a winning alliance. Take 177 on Archimedes and 1124 for example. 1124 trusted 177 even though their robot wasn't the best out on the field because 177 knows how to work with other teams and how to communicate as a highly competitive alliance. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that its not just up to the top 8 seeds to select their partners, it is also up to the lower seeded teams to "sell" and market their team to those certain top 8 teams. Just something to think about...

+$0.02

[Brandon Holley]

It seems to me like this thread has turned toward the 'you say' 'I say' kind of debate so I am not going to further that, however I will offer fuzzy some advice.

Fuzzy,
I am in my 8th year of "FIRST". My first 4 years were in high school, and the latest 4 have been through college as a mentor. I have been looking on these forums from sophomore year of high school on. There are some people on here who I have more respect for than anyone else in this world. I "grew up" reading the wise things these people had to say and the advice they offered to younglings like myself. Some of these very people are the ones you have been arguing with, and the ones opinions whom you have been dismissing. Try not and take these arguments personally (some of these great people can argue like its their job) and just stick to the facts. It is great to see you have so much passion for FIRST, but I really think you need to step back and analyze what is really angering you. As cory stated before, you are using what you are arguing against as support for what you are arguing for.


Hope it helps,
Brando

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

The fact that right after alliance selection, at the regionals that we have attended, I could tell you who was in the finals and be right 2/3 times, tells you something.

The fact that you can't be right 100% of the time tells me two things. First, the seeding rounds are not adequate to guarantee that the best robots are ranked highest. Second, there is more to winning elimination rounds than sheer robot goodness (teamwork, strategy, and luck all play a large part).

What it does not tell me is that high-ranked teams ought to be handicapped to make the outcome of the competition less predictable. I don't want every team at a regional to have a good chance of winning. I want that chance to go only to those teams who put forth the necessary effort. Winning an FRC tournament is something you must work at, not something you deserve.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

The fact that right after alliance selection, at the regionals that we have attended, I could tell you who was in the finals and be right 2/3 times, tells you something.
...
Is it better to go in knowing that you are going to win or [by] being evenly match[ed] with your oponent?

That sounds suspiciously like an argument for a serpentine draft during alliance selections.

I will let you argue that one out with Paul Copioli. I will just sit back and watch.

And sell tickets.

-dave


.

[Dan Petrovic]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

Mentors let me her wha the students have to say I don't care of your opionions, your not the focus of FIRST, your students are.

Mentors may not be the direct focus of FIRST, but they are just as involved as students are. They play a pivotal role in the success of FIRST and of the success of every team. They are just as important as the students, so their thoughts, comments, opinions, suggestions, and words of infinite wisdom are just as important as the students' thoughts, comments, opinions, suggests, and words of infinite wisdom.

I hope you see the importance of the mentors in FIRST. Just take a moment to look back on this past year and think about where you would have been without your mentors.

Yes, the main focus of FIRST is to teach students about the fields of science and engineering. But, if there are no mentors or engineers, where does that leave the divine "Focus"?

Mentors have just a right to let their opinion be known and have it be heard and acknowledged just like you do. Unfortunately for you, a poor sentence caused a lot of people to look at you in a bad light.

When you post here, remember that you are representing your team. Disclaimers wont save your team's reputation if you post something people get upset about.

I hope you take the time to realize that mentors are essential for the continued and growing success of FIRST.

You could have even said that sentence with a bit more grace. Rather than bashing the mentors, kindly ask for student opinions. It's not that hard to look back at your post to make sure it wont offend anyone.

Now to comment on your actual topic. Here is a student opinion:

Of course it's better to be evenly matched. It makes for more exciting finals. It might be more nerve-racking for the finalists, but the winners feel a better sense of accomplishment. However, finals that are evenly matched are very rare. Boston 2007 is an example of evenly matched finals where the outcome was determined, literally, at the buzzer. It's much more exciting.

The problem is that there is no way to insure that there are evenly matched alliances facing each other in the finals at every competition. It doesn't even happen on Einstein. It doesn't happen at IRI.

So... I don't know what else to say.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by lilstogi11

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that its not just up to the top 8 seeds to select their partners, it is also up to the lower seeded teams to "sell" and market their team to those certain top 8 teams.

There's a lot of truth in this statement. The interactions between teams, the exchanges of information, the honest marketing of the teams can generate interest and potential partnerships/alliances.

Jane

*goes off to find Andy Baker to tell a little marketing story from the OKC Regional*

[IKE]

From my earlier post I still say that the question should be "Is competing in 1 regional REALLY fair to the students?" Our team is blessed to have a solid sponsor that gives us enough support to do some extra events. This helps immensely in improving. Experience makes your team better.

If you only have enough money to do 1 regional, try to get into as many off season events as possible. They are relatively cheap (usually 10% the registration price of FRC regionals), and the events are usually great experiences. The entry fee can be raised for the price of a "carwash", and most places have campgrounds nearby.
Some post season events are invite only. This is where GP plays a big part. Nobody wants to deal with a poor sport, so upsetting persons that make those events is a bad idea.
If you can't compete at one of these events, go be a volunteer. This is a little known secret, but Powerhouse teams often volunteer at regionals. This gives you an up close personal veiw of what works and what doesn't. Doing field set-up, you can often listen in on strategy and see how teams work together. If I hadn't volunteered at the Rookie regional I would have underestimated Das Boot from the Enginerds 2337.
I said it before on page 6, but I think it bears repeating. 1718 has produced a couple of top notch machines the last two years. Next step is figuring out how to turn Good into Great. As frustrated as you are in that position imagine some of the teams that are still working on producing a good machine. Your team has figured out how to get past that step and that is not a small hurdle. Many vetran teams are still working on that. Some vetran teams were great, but as teams got better they stayed the same.

One demographic that FIRST really inspires is the "Do More" kind of people. Many of these same people find it insulting when you ask them to "Do Less". A couple of our kids figured out how to do a post season event on their own as all the mentors were busy. Seeing them succeed (yes making it to the semi's is a big success) without us (mentors) is one of the highlights of my season. It tells me that we (mentors) did a good job during the regular season preparing them.
Go Bees!

[chessking132]

I don't have the answer to this subject but i personally I enjoy going to two regionals. I feel that this it is a greater award for all our hard work. It also gives me a chance to visit places that I haven't been before. Finial i feel that there is nothing better then being at FIRST regional event so if you can afford it why not compete twice.

Matthew Simpson
Team 75 Driver

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

I have only been around FRC for 2 years

Meaning in every regional event you have been competing in (2 each year), your team has been an alliance captain. OK, I'm done with you now.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by lilstogi11

It is also up to the lesser performing robot's team to show the higher seeded and dominant team how they would be an asset to an alliance. The robots aren't always they greatest thing out on the field, but a lot of teams get picked because of their ability to cooperate with other teams and strategize in order to win.

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

There's a lot of truth in this statement. The interactions between teams, the exchanges of information, the honest marketing of the teams can generate interest and potential partnerships/alliances.

Jane

*goes off to find Andy Baker to tell a little marketing story from the OKC Regional*

The 2008 FRC season had many great experiences and stories. For me, one sticks out from Oklahoma City. Jane and I reffed together there, so she got to experience this with me. Here's the story:

Friday was a rough day for team 2369. Actually, it was a difficult day for many teams, as 27 of the 38 competing teams were rookies to FRC. Penalties were frequent, but diminished as the teams gained experience.

Team 2369 is one of those teams with a handful of students and one lead teacher, Modar Abuljebain. This team worked hard with little resources to create a herding robot, aiming to be the best at what they did. Each qualification match introduced another round of bad luck for 2369. They ended the day 0-6. As head ref, I noticed that their robot would do well each time, but their alliance lost each match. Every time, they would have a working hybrid mode, and they did their job. One match, they even got 4 lines in hybrid.

After the award ceremony on Friday, a few of us were hanging out around the field. Modar from 2369 and the lead students asked to talk to me. They were very discouraged by their last-place standing. They did not like depending on other robots who did not perform as well as theirs. All of them were very frustrated.

Remembering that they had a good hybrid mode, I encouraged them to market themselves and tell teams about their assets. I also kept track of penalties per team (on a tally sheet) and pointed out that they only had one penalty over their 0-6 day. This was one of their points of contention, since their partners got many penalties during their matches.

They never thought about the marketing aspect and alliance selection, and wondered how to do that. I gave them examples of what other teams do, by creating summary sheets, team buttons, and give-aways to advertise their teams. Instantly, I saw light bulbs appear above the team members' heads as hope re-appeared to their faces. They thanked me for the insight and went on their way.

The next morning, I was checking on some things in the pits and the students and Modar from team 2369 stopped me. They handed me a card, showing a picture of their robot on it and some key assets for their robot performance: "4-line hybrid mode", "only 1 penalty in 6 matches", and a couple other simple truths. They said that they were going from team to team in the pits, telling others why their team can help an alliance be better. One highly-seeded team even told them to be quiet about it. This team wanted to pick 2369 and didn't want other teams to learn about their hybrid mode.

2369 ended the qualification rounds by going 2-1 on Saturday morning. They were a 1st round pick in the elimination rounds. They lost in the 1st round of the finals, but they competed very well. On Saturday, they held their heads high as they realized that they were one of the top teams in Oklahoma.

I caught up with Modar and the guys after the competition was over, and asked them to autograph their marketing card. Their quick action and response to a difficult situation was an inspiration to me, and a great experience I will not forget.

Instead of giving up, MTC Robotics realized their accomplishments and worked hard at putting a marketing plan into action in a short amount of time (they didn't sleep much Friday night). This helped their team turn a frustrating season into a very successful rookie year.

Thanks to 2369 for being an inspiration to many.

Sincerely,
Andy B.