Is competing at multiple regionals REALLY fair ?

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

...I hate to say it but...there are some circumstances in which cash can be a substitute for hard work. With more time and resources there is not an even playing field.

But my point is that it takes hard work to get those sponsors to in turn get the money to provide for a CNC mill or to pay for some machining. But yea, I do see what you are saying. My point is to just not complain about the teams that do work hard and are successful. Like you said, you could hand machine all your parts and still be successful like 27, but to others who would like to view it in a negative way, they may complain of your success not knowing that you hand machine things like many of my other favorite successful teams. *that makes sense right? but idk haha *

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by lilstogi11

..., but to others who would like to view it in a negative way, they may complain of your success not knowing that you hand machine things like many of my other favorite successful teams.

I know that Team 188 is known as a rich team up here in the Great White North. The fact is that we don't have the machinery that others do. There is an old mill that one of our sponsors has that can be used but the school frowns on us going there. We do have a mentor that goes an usually takes 1 student with him. We have also, in the last 3 years, found a good deal on laser cutting of our drive base. We still have to earn the money to pay for it.

Our team works hard for the funds. They wanted to do a summer project but didn't have the money so they started selling Freezies after school. They earned almost $1000.00 and now have the money for the off season project. Nothing comes easy. Hard work does not mean success. If you work hard and smart, use your resources well (engineers are great resources), then your odds of being successful are much higher

Remember that the so called rich teams may not have the funds that you believe them to have. They are sometimes able to maximize their money because of experience and good job planning (measure twice, cut once). learn from other teams, do not be afraid to ask for help or ideas. Our team has had a great drive train thanks to help from team 25. Our off season project involves working with 2 other teams ideas to improve our team. We always make sure that we contact teams that we get ideas from and give them credit when we get a final product. As of yet we have not found any teams that were not willing to share.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

Although I do like the quote I don't completely agree with how applicable it is. Hypothetically, I can work at a mill for 2 hours making a part from a drawing that I worked equally hard on. Yes I am successful and the part works, but I spent 2 hours more than a team with a CNC mill that doesn't need to work as hard or as long to achieve the same thing. Or they could order the part and get in machined professionally...I hate to say it but...there are some circumstances in which cash can be a substitute for hard work. With more time and resources there is not an even playing field.

Just because a team fabricates a part on a CNC milling machine does not mean it was faster than it could have been created on a manual milling machine.

There are a lot of "extra steps" involved with CNC work that add a lot of time onto the procedure, such as creating the NC program and testing/simulating it. The only time it becomes faster to make parts on a CNC mill is when the complexity of the part goes through the roof or when you have a large production run (dozens, hundreds, or even thousands) to make.

For the vast majority of the time, these situations are not the norm during the FRC build season. There isn't much one can't make between a lathe and a milling machine with rotary table and DROs. Sure, you may not get fancy triangulated lightening pockets (although square ones are very easy to make, especially with DROs), but you can have fully functional parts.

I've seen a lot of teams get so worked up on "OMG, we have a CNC machine!!1!" that they spend so much time and energy making pretty wheel rims or milling their team logo into a sheet of aluminum or Lexan (or in other words, parts which have no bearing on the success of the robot) that they kind of "forget" about designing/fabricating a smart mechanism, and end up with some plywood last minute creation that only works halfway as well as it could have.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19

Note: this is thread has gone way off topic from multiple regionals and I will continue that trend.



Although I do like the quote I don't completely agree with how applicable it is. Hypothetically, I can work at a mill for 2 hours making a part from a drawing that I worked equally hard on. Yes I am successful and the part works, but I spent 2 hours more than a team with a CNC mill that doesn't need to work as hard or as long to achieve the same thing. Or they could order the part and get in machined professionally...I hate to say it but...there are some circumstances in which cash can be a substitute for hard work. With more time and resources there is not an even playing field.

Very true, but those teams work hard to get those things- to have access to a CNC mill, to get machine shops to donate time to make their parts. These are things anyone can do.

For example, machining resources. Get out the yellow pages and start calling every machine shop within 25 miles of you. I guarantee you will find more than one who is willing to help you out. We have found 3 or 4 locally who have helped us at one point or another in the last 3 years (with a significant amount of work), and 968 has done the same with many more shops.

Another thing to look for is community colleges with machine tool technology programs. You can often take the intro class, and then sign up for an open lab class to make personal projects (ie: robot parts)

[fuzzy1718]

A great example of how a team with a mill is at more of an advantage than those without: Our team this year spent 3 or 4 hrs drilling holes in our lift with a hole saw. How longer would that have taken on a mill, an hour maybe two?

Practicly our entire robot this year was made from hand tools, a drill press welder, and hand drills. We had only 1 or 2 parts in a machine shop, one was to get the gears off our fisher price motors.

Tell me who has the advantage, the team that can do it themselves in an hour or the team who has to send it to a machine shop and wait a day or two?

[=Martin=Taylor=]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

A great example of how a team with a mill is at more of an advantage than those without: Our team this year spent 3 or 4 hrs drilling holes in our lift with a hole saw. How longer would that have taken on a mill, an hour maybe two?

Practicly our entire robot this year was made from hand tools, a drill press welder, and hand drills. We had only 1 or 2 parts in a machine shop, one was to get the gears off our fisher price motors.

Tell me who has the advantage, the team that can do it themselves in an hour or the team who has to send it to a machine shop and wait a day or two?

A limited budget will force you to think more creatively, and come up with more simple and elegant solutions.

Just look at team 121. You could have built that robot with the tools you just described (as many other teams did ).

Yeah, our team can't make things as fast or as complex as the Cheesy Poofs... And that's why we've never copied the Cheesy Poofs...

There's always an easier/simpler way to do something. You just have to look.

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

A great example of how a team with a mill is at more of an advantage than those without: Our team this year spent 3 or 4 hrs drilling holes in our lift with a hole saw. How longer would that have taken on a mill, an hour maybe two?

Practicly our entire robot this year was made from hand tools, a drill press welder, and hand drills. We had only 1 or 2 parts in a machine shop, one was to get the gears off our fisher price motors.

Tell me who has the advantage, the team that can do it themselves in an hour or the team who has to send it to a machine shop and wait a day or two?

I sort of see what you're saying but...

Cory is right, if you need access to machinery, go to local machine shops and ask if they'll let you use there machines. I'm sure they'll let you.

My team went our first year without access to much machinery. This year we went to a local machine shop. We literally walked in and said "we are a local robotics team, and if you would be so kind as to let us use your shop a little bit in the next 6 weeks it would be greatly appreciated." We had no previous connections with the shop and the guy who owned it basically let us use it whenever we wanted.

Another story: After this build season my team decided we wanted a mill for the lab. We went to a local company to see if they would be interested in sponsoring us. After introducing the owner to FIRST and telling him our needs, he offered to give us a Bridgeport mill.

All I'm trying to say is if you put in the effort to get machinery or access to machinery, most of the time you are going to be successful.

It's not a matter of a team being at a disadvantage due to circumstance, it's a matter of teams being at an advantage because they took the time to work to give themselves an advantage.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by Sgreco27

go to local machine shops and ask if they'll let you use there machines. I'm sure they'll let you.

As long as they don't worry about safety issues. The shop we went to would make parts for us, but we had to be escorted throughout the building and they had to be the ones to use the machines. Something to do with company policy and insurance reasons.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by fuzzy1718

Tell me who has the advantage, the team that can do it themselves in an hour or the team who has to send it to a machine shop and wait a day or two?

In my mind the students who get to learn how to spec a part for the professional shop definitely have the advantage over the students who get to learn how to use the hole-saw.

But then again, my opinion doesn't matter, right?
-John

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Cory

Another thing to look for is community colleges with machine tool technology programs. You can often take the intro class, and then sign up for an open lab class to make personal projects (ie: robot parts)

Btw: yes, we went off topic lol but w/e


Cory has a very good point here. We've been so lucky to have the engineering profs. work with us to not only help build the robots but to also use their machine shop and a presentation center to host our kickoff event. County College of Morris is apparently one of the top community colleges so we are pretty lucky to have them help us and I suggest other teams do the same for a machining resource.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Cory

Another thing to look for is community colleges with machine tool technology programs. You can often take the intro class, and then sign up for an open lab class to make personal projects (ie: robot parts)

I'm with you there, Cory. Couple years ago, someone found out that El Camino College (Torrance, CA) has a shop that is open to any registered student if they've got the training. Teams 330 and 294 had some members take classes, and it didn't cost a whole lot. Got one of the instructors involved...

I don't know how many teams have actually used that shop, but I distinctly remember taking a class there during one of another team's FIX-IT windows, as they brought their arm in to work on it.

[IKE]

Can this be changed to the:
"Is life REALLY fair?" thread since there are so many tangents.

In college I watched two guys compete on which was the fastest way to turn out an axle with very precise bearing lands. One used a CNC lathe, the other a WW2 monarch (a nice peice of machinery as long as the vacuum tubes worked). End result they finished at the same time with the same quality of part. The CNC guy did have 4 scrap axles though.
If the task was to make 2 perfect axles the CNC guy would have won.

Be grateful for what you have (there is always someone who has less). Work hard to earn more, but remember someone will always have more. Very skilled people have helped rookies buid nice robots on Thursdays will little more than hacksaws and hand drills.

As my fifth grade math teach used to sing:
"I once had the blues cause I got no shoes
'til I happened to meet a man with no feet."

[Josh Fox]

*****Off Topic Section*****

Nothing in life is free. The team that has a full machine shop and every luxury that money can afford had to work to get that money, while the team with next to nothing but a hard working group of people have to work to in different ways to get the same results. Both groups have put in different kinds of work, and it's not really something that is on a measurable scale. It's like comparing apples to oranges, it just doesn't work.

Let's face it, in the real world, some people truly do have advantages, but that doesn't mean that hard work can't prevail. For example, I've had classmates who can ace everything without any effort, while others have to work incredibly hard to get the same results.



*****My attempt at an on topic comment*****
Though I am strongly for competing at multiple regionals, mostly because they are tons of fun, I can see the other side of this debate, and as a driver I can see where it would give the teams that do compete at multiple regionals an advantage over those who don't/can't.

In my experience, no matter how many hours of drive practice you put in, there's no real substitute for actually competing. This is the best way I can put this to have it make sense (maybe). Let's say two teams (A and B) have completely identical robots, drivers, skills, etc. If Team A and Team B put in exactly the same amount of practice prior to a competition, but Team A has already competed at one regional, I would give them an advantage if Teams A and B were to compete. That said, I'm eliminating all the variables here like strategy and such, but I think people need to accept that there are two valid sides to this debate, and neither of them is the absolutely correct one.

Hopefully this has made enough sense for people to be able to interpret it as a semi-intelligent comment.

[Molten]

Originally Posted by FoXy92

Hopefully this has made enough sense for people to be able to interpret it as a semi-intelligent comment.

Sorry, It's not semi-intelligent. It is completely intelligent. Hopefully, people will let this thread die as it should have long ago.

[Josh Fox]

Originally Posted by Molten

Sorry, It's not semi-intelligent. It is completely intelligent.

I'm glad that people were able to understand my thoughts, and I appreciate the compliment sincerely.

Originally Posted by Molten

Hopefully, people will let this thread die as it should have long ago.

I do respectfully disagree that this thread should be dead, because I feel that if it gets back on track, people voice their opinions respectfully, and come into this debate with an open mind, then maybe it will provoke some thoughts from other people. Let's face it, we could use some more original, against the grain thoughts in this world. However, I will agree that if this thread stays the way it has been, which I see as one where people are taking others opinions as attacks against their beliefs or themselves, then nothing productive will come out of the discussion and it should be closed.

So lets try and get back to intelligent, productive, non-offensive, open-minded discussions.