**FIRST EMAIL**/Invitation to Beta test the New Control System

[tennispro9911]

I agree. Working with experienced teams in our general area, 365, 341, 20, 191 and others would be a fabulous experience. Also, I honestly cannot think of a better way to do this than the proposed one. (Unless, of course, you gave one to my team AND did this, ) Joking aside, this is a great way to do it, and although its not perfect, nothing is. For example, take this quote "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." ~ Winston Churchill. I would say something similar about this program.

[Arefin Bari]

Daniel,

Targeting every single one of my views won't get you anywhere. Perhaps, you should write a letter to FIRST if you are that concerned. Other than that, I shall direct you to Cory's post above. I don't think I can put it in better words. If you would like to have further conversations, feel free to pm me. Rather than sitting here going at it, I would like to be thankful that FIRST is even getting 15 systems out to teams for beta testing. I don't know about you, but I know I will have enough documents to work with for next season as far as these controllers go.

p.s. - I understand that you are not liking the fact that the 1st and 2nd year teams aren't getting a chance. The only way to take initiation about this is to convince FIRST.

[JaneYoung]

I think this initiative was developed to help bridge the gaps that rookies and young teams have in some areas. I also like the posts in this thread that 'get' the purpose of this. I view the purpose as better preparation, hands-on experience, training, and sharing of knowledge gained. Building stronger community: strengthening teams and teams working together.

We also have to have a level of trust in this, trusting those involved such as people like our WFA go-to guy, Paul Copioli.

[Elgin Clock]

If anyone really wants to complain about not being able to test these suckers out, I would consider the fact that the base model of the new system goes for at least 3 grand ($2100 with a discount if you buy a quantity of 100 course.).

For FIRST to even consider trusting teams ahead of time with some of these, let alone a quantity of 15 for "pre-release" for the 2009 season... is awesome.

But if you still want to complain a team will have an unfair advantage over you, go ahead & buy one.
Oh, btw, that 3 grand price tag doesn't include modules or additional components as shown on the demo bots in Atlanta, & other places such as IRI.

http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/203964

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Arefin Bari

Daniel,

Targeting every single one of my views won't get you anywhere. Perhaps, you should write a letter to FIRST if you are that concerned. Other than that, I shall direct you to Cory's post above. I don't think I can put it in better words. If you would like to have further conversations, feel free to pm me. Rather than sitting here going at it, I would like to be thankful that FIRST is even getting 15 systems out to teams for beta testing. I don't know about you, but I know I will have enough documents to work with for next season as far as these controllers go.

p.s. - I understand that you are not liking the fact that the 1st and 2nd year teams aren't getting a chance. The only way to take initiation about this is to convince FIRST.

Arefin,

I apologize if it appeared that I was 'Targeting your views'. That was not my intent. My intent was to air my concerns about the way things re being handled in a constructive manner and to get a dialog started. It appears as if my constructive criticism was not taken as constructive, and for that I apologise.

It would be interesting to chart how well the teams that get the beta units against those who didn't and see if it actually gave them a distinct advantage or not.

[tennispro9911]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Arefin,

I apologize if it appeared that I was 'Targeting your views'. That was not my intent. My intent was to air my concerns about the way things re being handled in a constructive manner and to get a dialog started. It appears as if my constructive criticism was not taken as constructive, and for that I apologise.

It would be interesting to chart how well the teams that get the beta units against those who didn't and see if it actually gave them a distinct advantage or not.

Of course the teams that get the units will do better on average. But thats not because they got the units. It may or may not help, but think about it. Lets say you give units to 1114 and 254, just to use teams that a lot of people know, and that probably will do very well next year regardless. If they do better than a rookie team, do you really think thats because of a slight advantage of seeing the RC first?

The teams that get these will do awesome if they do or do not get them. What would be more interesting is if the teams that go to the seminars that these teams put on do better. Thats truly a test if this program works as intended.

[JesseK]

Do we know if/when the schedule of area workshops will be sent around to teams? It seems like a logical "yes" but I'd like to know the workshop schedule as soon as possible, if possible. Advance scheduling is key to coordinating other FRC auxiliary projects, FTC season kickoff between a few different schools, SEAPerch, and a myriad of things that come up in the Fall at work.

If a team gets it in the DC/NoVa/Baltimore/Richmond area, I'd also like to offer help either in the "ways to run it in" planning or the building of the test platforms one weekend. While I know our team currently does not have the capacity to do the full beta test (SEAPerch is really taking off...), at least two of our veteran students are interested in getting more design/build experience preseason. Cheers!

[R.C.]

I don't want to be rude, but the veteran teams should get the rc first. We, 1323, are probably not going to get the rc to beta test and we are 6th year team. You can learn a lot from just reading and seeing pics. So Rookie teams don't worry about not getting the rc as early as the veteran teams.

Good Luck everyone for the 09 Season.

[Greg Needel]

The main reason I agree with FIRST in this case is mainly because of time frame. While as someone who is starting a rookie team this year I would love to get my hands on a controller the right decision has been made.

If teams chosen will be getting the controller September 15th and will be doing work for a couple months. The issues I see is the time frame for fixing problems before kickoff. If a team discovers a hardware or interface bug there will be little or no time to fix it before they need to be in the kits. Putting it in the hands of teams that may have the ability to fix those problems will be crucial.

For example it was veterans who came up with the new match pairing algorithm. Back in the Hatch days I remember watching some of my peers debugging the Hatch software on the fly week one so the other regonals could go off. I am not saying that young teams don't have the expertise to do this, but I would rather put my money on someone who has a track record of success.

As for the arguments about giving veteran teams a huge advantage let me put it bluntly. The teams in question constantly have that advantage over everyone else. While it may not be as obvious as this situation when it comes down to it those teams have the experience, the resources, the people, and ultimately the right combination that can only come from years of hard work. If you honestly think that getting your controller a few months early will magically boost your performance to that of 1114, 330, 245, and others you are sadly mistaken. If you are a good team then the shared experiences of the other veterans will make you stronger, and if you are struggling rookie team don't worry other people will have your back.

[Ken Patton]

One thing that teams who are submitting Beta-test proposals could do - and I promise I will look for it in evaluating proposals - is to clearly show how they are going to make it better for the new teams to get running without the major efforts that the Beta-test teams will be devoting to this. That would help to address the concerns of people who think there might be some advantage. If new teams can go through the Beta-test primers and get up in running in less time than it took the Beta-testers themselves (after all, the inital problems ideally would be solved in Beta-test), that will be an advantage to the new teams.

Beta-test teams need to think of the valuable pieces of the puzzle - solutions and instructive steps that will be needed by all teams - and then put together a proposal that will address those puzzle pieces. Think of the features needed in our robots. There are a lot of areas where good solutions will be of value to many teams.

There are going to be areas where proposals might overlap, and it seems to me that if teams did a great job of documenting solutions, we could get away with less overlap.

Ken

[AdamHeard]

It makes perfect sense for them to target the teams they are; They only have 15 units to give out, and they want teams overall to get most out of this program.

Even the most amazing 2nd year team can't hold a candle to what 365 and other similar teams can do to benefit the community if they were to be selected as part of the beta program. If they removed the stipulations I think the 15 units would go to the same teams anyway.

[Kims Robot]

Silly question... where did the number of 15 units come from? Best I can tell Cory was just throwing a number out there, as I dont see it officially anywhere... and before people get too bent up about it, I was wondering if I missed it somewhere...

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

Silly question... where did the number of 15 units come from? Best I can tell Cory was just throwing a number out there, as I dont see it officially anywhere... and before people get too bent up about it, I was wondering if I missed it somewhere...

I heard somewhere it's 15.

[tennispro9911]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

As for the arguments about giving veteran teams a huge advantage let me put it bluntly. The teams in question constantly have that advantage over everyone else. While it may not be as obvious as this situation when it comes down to it those teams have the experience, the resources, the people, and ultimately the right combination that can only come from years of hard work. If you honestly think that getting your controller a few months early will magically boost your performance to that of 1114, 330, 245, and others you are sadly mistaken. If you are a good team then the shared experiences of the other veterans will make you stronger, and if you are struggling rookie team don't worry other people will have your back.

Exactly. There is a reason that 1114 has won 5 regionals and the championship in the last 2 years and it isn't luck. Teams do not have the same resources, and teams are not on a level playing field. This will help rookies and newer teams as much if not more than the teams that are consistantly great.

[marccenter]

Would it be possible for teams to combine resources in a local geographical region to beta-test the FRC 2009 controller? What would the mechanism be for organizing this? I for one would be willing to assist a team of folks willing to tackle the FRC 2009 in the Detroit area, but may not able to commit to implementing a full blown solution as proposed without additional resources.
Thoughts?