New FIRST competition structure in Michigan

[NEMentor470]

Originally Posted by 340x4xLife

I think we all need to work on something that will work everywhere, not just MI. I think the MI Pilot will work there, I think if all the MI teams agree on the point structure then that's OK for them.

Not ALL Michigan teams agree, nor were they all consulted in the planning stage. The plan was apparently mentioned as a possibility at some meeting to which not all were able to send representatives, but details were not discussed at that time. Michigan teams who were not part of the planning group found out about the change at the same time it was announced to the rest of the world.

We've been attending one Regional, GLRC, at Eastern Michigan U, right in our "backyard": No travel expenses. In order to participate this year we will have to rent a bus and/or other vehicles. This will probably cost $1,000 - $1,200 even though we are going to the closest two events possible. (so much for saving $1,000)

The idea of a district system has a lot of merit, but the roll out could have been less traumatic. I wish that FiM had made a greater effort to let ALL the teams know of their plans much further in advance. A year to plan and raise money would not be too long.

I hope that any future program changes will be considered by a wider group of leaders and input about logistics and costs will be sought from all teams. Every team is important, even if they haven't fielded a champion robot. The students still learn a lot and go on to be engineers. That's the real point of all this isn't it?

[Ericgehrken]

This seems like a huge step forward for FIRST, maybe other states will adapt this model in the future.

[Travis Hoffman]

Not spending much time thinking about it, I think this could be a boon for the quality of the regionals just outside of Michigan, as the lockout of non-Michigan teams from competing at the generally high-demand Michigan events might make those teams seek out the Buckeyes and Boilermakers and Pittsburghs (and Waterloos? and....) of the world.

Not to mention the Michigan teams are free to escape from their own state and still participate in these non-Michigan events themselves.

So....if FIRST chooses to have an open enrollment phase for Championship registration again this year, are Michigan teams eligible to sign up then, or must they only qualify via their new district guidelines or via earning their way in at a non-Michigan regional?

[Madison]

A thought -- are FIRST and NI prepared to troubleshoot a brand new control system at these additional events? It seems a weird time to implement two radical shifts in how the program operates in a single season.

Another thought -- knowing that practically nothing of a team's registration fee goes toward supporting a regional event, I'm having trouble reconciling how teams in Michigan can justifiably play more for their single registration fee. The FAQ seems to deftly ignore how much the registration fee for Michigan teams will be; I'm curious to learn if it'll be higher or lower than elsewhere and how the time spent playing matches for that fee compares with teams from other states paying a similar amount.

[IndySam]

Not to be a stick in the mud but the Michigan teams getting two events for the price of one doesn't sit well with me. Also we don't know what the fee for the State Championship will be, I bet it won't be $4K.

[dtk]

Originally Posted by IndySam

Not to be a stick in the mud but the Michigan teams getting two events for the price of one doesn't sit well with me. Also we don't know what the fee for the State Championship will be, I bet it won't be $4K.

I believe the State Championship fee will in fact be $4,000.

While for the 2009 season there is no doubt Michigan teams are being given more plays for less it is simply the first step in effecting that change for the entire country. So yes if things turn out well then there is, perhaps, an additional cost benefit to being a Michigan teams in the short term. But I think it's important to judge this change based on whether or not it is beneficial for FIRST across the country because if it is then everyone will have the same advantages in time. I'm not sure if the answer is yes, but that's why it's a pilot program.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by dtk

I believe the State Championship fee will in fact be $4,000.

Do you have inside information for that? The FAQ say's the teams will have to pay an "additional fee" for the State event while also stating in the same section that for out of state regionals they will pay "regular FRC registration fees." That seems like a pretty important distinction.

Look I'm not entirely against the pilot program. FIRST needs to change something for FRC to continue growing. I just want to know how much of a potential advantage MI teams may get.

[dtk]

Originally Posted by IndySam

Do you have inside information for that? The FAQ say's the teams will have to pay an "additional fee" for the State event while also stating in the same section that for out of state regionals they will pay "regular FRC registration fees." That seems like a pretty important distinction.

Yes I can confirm the cost is the same as any other additional event ($4,000).

[Cory]

People have been referencing this being a necessary step for FRC to continue growing.

I say why do we want FRC to keep growing?

It's an unrealistic goal for FRC to be in every school in the country. It's not happening; not now, not ever; not even if there's a regional event within 3 blocks of every high school in America.

Why do we want to continue to oversaturate local economies? Most teams are barely staying afloat year to year as it is. Many teams have to drop out after a few years.

It's been my opinion for a very long time that FIRST ought to spend all their effort making their FRC teams as strong as they possibly can, not worrying about being able to claim abc% of of schools in state xyz have FRC teams.

How is the program going to be better off having 3,000 teams, with most of them not having proper resources (mentors, teachers, corporate sponsors, etc), vs 1500 teams that have a strong base to work from.

Prior to dropping VEX, I saw FTC as the most viable platform for having a team in every school in the country. At this point I'd be perfectly happy to see a period of a few years where we see zero rookie teams, and no veteran teams dropping out.

That said, I don't like this idea at all. I don't like change in general, but I've got to say I'm glad it's not CA that's following this model.

I have a couple of main issues with this plan:

1) Regionals will feel more like high school sporting events. They will not be nearly as impressive as they currently are. Which is going to look better to sponsors, potential benefactors, etc: taking them to a high school gym, without all the A/V, and everything else that makes a FIRST event special, or taking them to a professional sporting venue filled with FIRST teams, professional A/V, etc? It'll be like a bunch of offseason events.

Now people may argue IRI, and yes, IRI is better than most regionals--but for a couple key reasons. At IRI you have 72 of the best teams in the country. It could literally be held in a cornfield in the middle of Indiana and nobody would care, because the competition is simply that good. IRI also has amazingly dedicated volunteers, who have been doing this for the better part of a decade. How many of these district events will have planners with this much experience? Not many.

2) Quality/variety of teams. This probably won't be noticed in MI, since MI is home to many of FIRST's best teams, but I can guarantee it will be elsewhere. In states without an abundance of top teams, the competitions will not be very exciting. It's boring watching FRC events without good robots,and without having non-local talent coming in to the historically weaker events, you end up with the same group of teams, and a not very exciting competition. Even if we disregard such situations, one of the best parts of a regional event is getting to meet and play with new teams from all over the country (and Canada, Mexico, Brazil, etc).

Such a situation leaves me with 2 conclusions: either everyone stays home so they can maximize their number of events, or all the powerhouse teams don't play at home, so that they can see some variety, and play with the best of the best. I'm not a fan of either situation.

[dtk]

While the district events will not be identical copies of the regional events the intention is to make them look and feel as close as possible. The Kettering Rookie Regional from last year was a proof of concept and not the final plan for these district events. It is likely that it will be dressed up even more for the district version. I would expect the district events to come very close to a full regional in the look and feel department.

A lot of the cost reduction is not coming from cutting things out of the event, but instead from leveraging the support of venues and local sponsors to receive more things at reduced costs.

[ParkerF]

I just going to poke into this thread for one moment. I'm curious to see what people have to think about this, and want to invoke a conversation about it.

I personally love the air of competitions. A huge set of bleachers/arena seating full of chanting and cheering team members while robots go at it under the field lighting is what defines a great event for me. Being a driver, I don't get to be up in the stands with my team, however I do get to stare into the masses while teams with students you've never met before cheer for your alliance to take the victory. That's definitely one thing that makes FIRST so different from any other organization in my opinion. With Michigan going from three regional events this year to an astounding eight will either stretch the wallet of FIRST, or they'll have to slightly dumb down the quality of the event. Now I've been in FIRST for only a year now, but I don't want to see other students miss what I've gotten to experience.

I don't have a clue how many teams the state of Michigan has, or even how many rookie teams it will have this coming season, but something tells me that each of those district events won't have the average fifty or so teams that current regionals have. Having that many teams adds depth, along with other things. I just wouldn't enjoy an event with fewer teams as I would one with fifty or more. I could bring up other points, but I'm going to stop and see what you all can take out of what I've written so far.

I just want to see what you all feel about the possible fact that these events may be less of an experience than that of current events. Again, I'm simply looking at it through the eyes of someone who doesn't want other students to miss out on what I've had. Is a drop in quality really worth bringing in more teams?

[Disclaimer: I've probably over-written this, thus making my point hard to understand. If you don't wish to try and figure out what I mean, by all means ignore this. ]

[IKE]

Originally Posted by francistexas

I personally love the air of competitions.

I went to the Kettering Rookie regional and it was pretty cool. As you guessed it was not the Rock Concert that GLR is, but it did feel more like a high school sporting event.

I think that to keep it affordable they will get rid of some of the spectacle. Also the district events are supposed to be 35-45 teams, so they will be smaller than many regionals.

Hopefully this gets made up for by an outstanding State Championship.

This will definitely be one of the questions we ask our kids at the end of next season.

P.S. I think MI has right around 120 teams. Next year should be about 130-140. 7 districts x 40 teams/event = 280 event slots = everybody gets 2 slots.

[acdcfan259]

Originally Posted by francistexas

I just going to poke into this thread for one moment. I'm curious to see what people have to think about this, and want to invoke a conversation about it.

I personally love the air of competitions. A huge set of bleachers/arena seating full of chanting and cheering team members while robots go at it under the field lighting is what defines a great event for me. Being a driver, I don't get to be up in the stands with my team, however I do get to stare into the masses while teams with students you've never met before cheer for your alliance to take the victory. That's definitely one thing that makes FIRST so different from any other organization in my opinion. With Michigan going from three regional events this year to an astounding eight will either stretch the wallet of FIRST, or they'll have to slightly dumb down the quality of the event. Now I've been in FIRST for only a year now, but I don't want to see other students miss what I've gotten to experience.

I don't have a clue how many teams the state of Michigan has, or even how many rookie teams it will have this coming season, but something tells me that each of those district events won't have the average fifty or so teams that current regionals have. Having that many teams adds depth, along with other things. I just wouldn't enjoy an event with fewer teams as I would one with fifty or more. I could bring up other points, but I'm going to stop and see what you all can take out of what I've written so far.

I just want to see what you all feel about the possible fact that these events may be less of an experience than that of current events. Again, I'm simply looking at it through the eyes of someone who doesn't want other students to miss out on what I've had. Is a drop in quality really worth bringing in more teams?

[Disclaimer: I've probably over-written this, thus making my point hard to understand. If you don't wish to try and figure out what I mean, by all means ignore this. ]

I see what you're talking about. I imagine to hold this many events, they'll have to find some way to cut down costs. Where, we don't know yet. And like you said, the experience will be different. I'm very shaky on the whole idea, but let's see what happens.

Now for my question. If this were adapted for all of FIRST, the way I understand it teams would have to stay in state. Correct me if I'm wrong. One thing that I enjoy about our team is that we travel to a far away regional. Now traveling isn't the only reason I'm here, but it certainly is a big bonus. It's nice to get away from home and to see other places.

[Alan Anderson]

I think something like this is a necessary step in the growth of FRC in particular. I'm not sure if it's the best way to do things, but I am sure I couldn't have suggested anything better. It does make me wonder how the "district" scheme might be expanded to other regions, especially those with sparsely-spread teams.

I'm glad we didn't already make firm plans to attend a Michigan regional next year. I'm also very happy not to be a Michigan team right now, and I offer any Karma I can spare to those teams who need it.

Originally Posted by M. Krass

Another thought -- knowing that practically nothing of a team's registration fee goes toward supporting a regional event, I'm having trouble reconciling how teams in Michigan can justifiably play more for their single registration fee.

I suspect the district events won't have quite the level of audiovisual production staffing that we've come to expect from regional competitions.

[IKE]

I think the registration fee is the same, the big difference is that Michigan teams get 2 district events as opposed to 1 regional event. By the sounds of it the district events will be similar, but more economical versions of a regional event (more like Kettering Rookie event or off season events). These district events are not garuanteed trips to the Championship, but only the State Championship.

Overall it looks like a good trade-off to me, but I am glad that they are doing a trial run.