New FIRST competition structure in Michigan

[maltz1881]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

I expressed some concern about the quality of an event run with a smaller budget last year with respect to the Kettering Rookie event, another pilot program in Michigan.

While I can't speak for communication through other channels, there has been remarkably little discussion here about that event. There appear to be few photos from the event in CD-Media and what discussion I've found seems to focus heavily on the benefit of the program to rookie teams and not at all on the quality of the experience when compared to that provided by other regional events.

As a pilot, the implication is that this structure may be implemented elsewhere in the future. Why, then, has there been little information about the organization of this pilot -- and the success of last year's pilot -- presented to FIRST volunteers in other parts of the country? Again, maybe that information is available through other channels, but this is the first that many have heard of this.

A lot about this is being kept close to the vest and that makes me uneasy.

There has been a lot of talk with other states about the Kettering Rookie Event. I was 1 of the many wonderful volunteers who helped to host this event.

It was an amazing 2 days. I can tell you that right now Arizona is trying to host an all rookie event and Canada's Event Coordinator's came to help out at Kettering. They came to see if it was viable for Canada to host something such as this as well. Trust me they loved it! We hosted the event for $500.00 a team, had them sleep in the dorms at Kettering for $14.00 a night for 2 people ( each person spent $7.00 per night). You won't find a hotel that cheap!

Sure we didn't provide all the bells and whistles that you would normally get but it was an extremely high quaility event. I never heard 1 bad comment other than the breakdown of the field. In actuallity that helped teams, it allowed them more time to work on the bots.

I am pretty excited about this. I am pretty sure Kettering will host the event in my area. If not Kettering than possibly Grand Blanc High school.

The email and package that was sent out to the Michigan teams did state in it, that the Michigan Championship will cost $4,000.00 However I was told at 1 point a few months ago Michigan teams won't be forced into participating in this event this 1st year if they wish to opt out. I am not sure if that has changed or not.

[johnr]

I would hope that the powers that be would see that a waiver of some kind needs to be in place for teams in the U.P. This is a test program and i see no need to make every team take part. However, if you take waiver you might not be able to play in states.
Also, Thursday is abit of a concern. One thought would be that a teams near the district, with good practice fields, would offer its use. Maybe with a small fee. That first friday could be ugly.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Cory

The analogy I'd make is that our current regional events are our version of MLB/NFL/NBA games, etc.

I'd maintain that FRC, even at the Championship or IRI level, is all strictly amateur. The FIRST equivalent of professional sports is no less than a career in science or technology. That is what we want (some of) the students to be aiming for.

I can imagine a future FRC season having only Michigan-style district and regional competitions, and a world championship event with participation based on merit alone. From a previous highly active thread, that would obviously make many people happy. But I can also see a use for a handful of official "invitationals" which teams can apply for regardless of region.

[acdcfan259]

Originally Posted by Jim Zondag

One of the fundamental problems with Thursday in the current format is that for many, Thursday is not Practice Day, Thursday is Rework Day. Many teams show up and tear their machine apart. They do not go out to practice and instead they spend the whole day wrenching. Why do they do this?...because they can. Now, teams are going to have to put more priority being ready to play when they show up beacuse the whole idea of "we'll fix it on Thursday when we get there" will no longer be an easy choice. Teams will still have this same amount of time to rework if they want, but now they are doing it on their own time. In reality, this will likely make the inspection process easier, not harder.

I don't see this as a problem, but as a good thing. If teams want to re-work they should be able to. This is making the competition that much better.

I really see no reason to get rid of Thursday. FIRST has proven time and time again that they graduate some of the best and brightest in the country and the world. You're actually missing the same amount of time if you were to attend one regional like a lot of teams do.

Originally Posted by johnr

I would hope that the powers that be would see that a waiver of some kind needs to be in place for teams in the U.P. This is a test program and i see no need to make every team take part. However, if you take waiver you might not be able to play in states.
Also, Thursday is abit of a concern. One thought would be that a teams near the district, with good practice fields, would offer its use. Maybe with a small fee. That first friday could be ugly.

I have to agree wholeheartedly. If teams don't want to participate, that should give us an idea as to whether or not this is the direction we should take. As some have said, this is a downgrade for some teams. Forcing them to participate doesn't seem right.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by IKE

I participated in the Thursday portion of the Kettering Rookie Regional. I also saw the review of the Pilot event and heard a lot of comments.

As M. Krass keeps pointing out, there was not a lot of feedback on CD about the event. This is for a couple of reasons.

As a pilot event for Rookies only, there was not a lot published to vetran teams.
Since Rookies were the ones competing, they would be the normal traffic on CD, but most Rookies do not figure out CD until late in their first year.

As a team that attends multiple regionals, I really liked the thursday night check in format. With it a reasonable drive (1 hour), I didn't have to take time off of work (this is huge for me as a volunteer). Pits were open late that night and they got a lot of machines inspected and ready to go that night including machines that were 30+ pounds overweight. Last I heard only 1 machine out of the 30+ teams were non-functional at the end of the event (there are often that many at a traditional regional). With the MI FIRST format, this team would get 1 more chance to get their machine going. The traditional format has them packing up and likely folding up after their first year.
As far as quality of the event goes, it was really quite good. I will talk to the organizers to see if they can put the Rookie Regional Wrap Up on CD so people can judge for themselves. People should keep in mind that the difference in "quality" isn't as big as they might expect.
As far as Michigan not being able to fit in the current model, there were 3 regionals with 140 total slots for 120 michigan teams (and out of state teams). If every team went to 1 michigan event that meant there were only 20 slots open for a second event. That means a lot of teams had to go out of state for a second event. As people have pointed out travling out of state costs at least 2x as much as local events thus requiring a significantly larger budget and time off of work (or only the competition team getting to travel).
I like the quality vs. quantity debate, but lets attach some numbers. If 120 teams get to experience an event rated at a 9 (scale of 1-10), or for the same price they get to experience 2 events rated at a 7, isn't that better? Or for teams that do two events, 2*9 versus 2*7+9(The state championship will be a 9) 18<23.

I would love to see anything more about the rookie pilot from last season -- a wrap up by those that organized the event, photos, or video. I have been able to find three pictures of the event; only one of which offers a glimpse a the "stage," -- the field and seating. That picture did not impress me, reminding me more of an off-season competition than a world-class sporting event.

I would like to know more about media coverage of the rookie event. How were media guests and VIPs handled? Was there a catered reception, special seating or guided tours?

I think that, ultimately, if we're going to drive interest in science, technology, engineering and math on a national or global scale, we have to recognize that inspiration -- while enormously effective through direct mentoring -- can occur by other mechanisms. Interest by youth in becoming a professional athlete is disproportionately high compared to the number of youth that have met a professional athlete. Why can't the same be true of STEM heroes in the future?

Why does someone have to meet Paul or Andy or their local, homegrown equivalent to understand that what they do is cool and worthwhile? Why can't we put these guys up on ESPN (y'know, like we used to?) alongside their teams and drive interest that way?

[dtengineering]

I've been pondering the issue of tech inspection in this format for a bit and think there may be a solution. There is no technical reason that inspection MUST take place at an event... if tech inspectors are willing to volunteer their time in the evenings in the week leading up to an event, they could travel to a team's workshop, unseal the robot storage bag, complete a tech inspection and re-seal the bag. Then the team could use their 8 hour "fix it" window to make any neccesary changes and go through a quick re-inspection at the event. Yes, this would mean that tech inspectors would have to drive about the state, carrying a robot weigh scale with them, but in a state with a high density of teams and sufficient volunteers to handle 7 district events, this shouldn't be the same problem that would exist in other areas.

Alternatively there could be a district tech inspection on the Saturday... or a weekday evening... preceeding the event. The important part is that teams have a chance to correct any errors, and inspectors have sufficient time to complete a thorough, high quality inspection.

Jason

[Josh Fox]

One thing I haven't picked up out of the discussion here is how Michigan teams are going to qualify for Atlanta. Do you go for winning districts? States? How/Where will Chairman's be awarded? Etc. If anyone could help me out it would be greatly appreciated.

I have mixed feelings at this point. This could either be the future of FIRST, or... unsuccessful. But hey, that's why this is a pilot right? We're bound to learn something from it, so it can't be all bad.

[maltz1881]

http://www.flickr.com/gp/20629362@N05/C9J3FV

Here is a link to the Kettering Rookie Event pictures. You have to understand that Kettering is one of the top universities in the world for engineering. It is in a small setting but one of the most unique schools you will ever see. Look it up in the Princeton Review or at Time Magazine ranking of top colleges in the US. Kettering is always at the top. I have sat on the committee their for the past 8 years, they don't do things 1/2 way or even 99% of the way. It is the best. We bring in bleachers, we have pits, we have the loud music we have the awards etc. We even had the officals from FIRST there were blown away. Yes we had a catered reception, we just didnt throw pizza at people unless that is what you wanted!!! Kettering is willing to give tours at any time. They have a fuel cell development program that they love to show off. Including if somebody wanted to take a ride in a fuel cell car, they will take you. It is the same field you play on, the field we used had been at the Midwest the week before.

Here in Michigan we pride ourselves on helping each other including and esp. the rookies. We look after each other like you wouldn't believe. We hold phone sessions with them on a weekly basis during build. If a team has an issue we make sure we find somebody nearby to aid them. Of course this doesn't work so well in the UP but we as veterans make ourselves available either through email or phone to them.

Take a look at the Championship. What state sticks out? Michigan! It seems every year or close to it, the Champion comes from here. We look at not just the issue in front of us, but look for ways to make it better.

I'm I convinced this is the way to go? I'm not sure, but I am willing to give it a shot before I shoot it down. I do think there will be teams who hate it and others who will love it and embrace it.

Isn't this what engineering is all about? Design it and see if you can improve it? I am going to be open minded about it!

[kramarczyk]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

I've been pondering the issue of tech inspection in this format for a bit and think there may be a solution. There is no technical reason that inspection MUST take place at an event... if tech inspectors are willing to volunteer their time in the evenings in the week leading up to an event, they could travel to a team's workshop, unseal the robot storage bag, complete a tech inspection and re-seal the bag. Then the team could use their 8 hour "fix it" window to make any neccesary changes and go through a quick re-inspection at the event. Yes, this would mean that tech inspectors would have to drive about the state, carrying a robot weigh scale with them, but in a state with a high density of teams and sufficient volunteers to handle 7 district events, this shouldn't be the same problem that would exist in other areas.

Alternatively there could be a district tech inspection on the Saturday... or a weekday evening... preceeding the event. The important part is that teams have a chance to correct any errors, and inspectors have sufficient time to complete a thorough, high quality inspection.

Jason

The "optional Thursday check-in" may be a way to accomplish this.

See page two of the pdf Beth posted. Bullet 4 under 'District Events'.

Odd, the post is #67. How fitting for a post that good.

[ParkerF]

Originally Posted by FoXy92

One thing I haven't picked up out of the discussion here is how Michigan teams are going to qualify for Atlanta. Do you go for winning districts? States? How/Where will Chairman's be awarded? Etc. If anyone could help me out it would be greatly appreciated.

From what I've read, your team must qualify for the MI State Championship, and around 18 teams from that competition will qualify for Atlanta. It actually puts the MI teams at a disadvantage for Atlanta financially. $5000 + $4000 if you make it to MI. That's one chance to make Atlanta. One chance to Atlanta for an outside-Mich team is $6000. Not to mention any fees going along with Atlanta if you make it there.

MI teams are saving money, yes...unless you merit Atlanta, compared to teams who qualify through one regional.

[Disclaimer2: My information could very well be incorrect. Please excuse me if it is. Simply trying to point something out I noticed. ]

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Jim Zondag

To comment on a few more items:

A: The rookie pilot run at Kettering last year proved we can run a very high quality FIRST event for a fraction of the cost of typical regional event.

B: Item A is not exactly anything new, since very good off season events have been running for over a decade in many locations. Most of these events operate at 10% or less than the operating cost of a typcial FIRST Regional.

C: We have the money to run 8 events in Michigan next year if we do it this way. Financing will not be an issue.

D: We have the venues to for the events and we have many qualified volunteers and veterans to help get this going.

E: We have an estimated 120-130 teams in the State of Mich next year. This means if you compete at 2 events, there is probably no more overlap on team particapation than there was in 2008 if you did any two of GLR, WMR, DET, Cleveland, Chicago, Boiler, etc. The only reason overlay may increase is because now EVERYONE plays twice. If we enabled double plays for everyone thru any other means, the overlap issue would be the same as it will be in the new system.

F: If anyone want to go out of state, it costs the same as always. Now you get a 2 for 1 deal if you stay in state, but if you want to skip one and spend your money to go somewhere else, go for it. Your loss for throwing away a freebie, but it will not cost any more to do this than it ever did in the past.

G: Remember, Nothing will ever get better without making changes and taking some risks. We all want FIRST to get better. "Better" means lower cost, more sustainable, more accessable, more visible, etc. This change is a big enabler to all this things.

FRC today is profoundly different than FRC was in 1992. The league is over 60x its original size yet we are still using a competition structure designed when the league was small. Many have argued for a long time that we have outgrown this model. In 2009 we will finally test a new model and find out if this is true. We will never know if we do not try!

I have no doubt what you say is true. The thought that comes to mind is that I hope then, future FRC events can learn/follow these examples and bring the regional event costs much cheaper.
One example is the shipping of robots. We paid a lot more for shipping this past season following FIRST guidelines as opposed to some other teams that got them way cheaper, doing it themselves.
These are the kinds of things that should be brought to light and shared to bring the costs down. Its too bad after talking with other teams that we found this out.

[Branden Ghena]

Pros:

Multiple Events!!! - This would be a first for my team. We have never been able to raise the money to go to multiple events.

No Shipping - For those local teams who remember shipping was terrible this year, with our UPS (or Fedex I don't actually remember) calling us at the end of the last day of build season saying they wouldn't be able to pick up our robot on time.

Cons:

No Practice Day - For Team 240, and I'm sure many others, practice day is the first time our robot sets its wheels on the field. Without a practice day it will be very difficult to implement a good autonomous/hybrid mode.

Additional Cost for Michigan Championship - Even if our team made it to the Michigan Championship, I'm not sure we would be able to raise the funds to compete in it.

Overall:

I like the idea. I think its going to give us more time to compete with our robot while still keeping costs down. And as mentioned, its a pilot, if it doesn't work FIRST can kill it. If it does work, however, I can see this moving on to all of FIRST.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by tawnos23

Pros:

Multiple Events!!! - This would be a first for my team. We have never been able to raise the money to go to multiple events.

No Shipping - For those local teams who remember shipping was terrible this year, with our UPS (or Fedex I don't actually remember) calling us at the end of the last day of build season saying they wouldn't be able to pick up our robot on time.

Cons:

No Practice Day - For Team 240, and I'm sure many others, practice day is the first time our robot sets its wheels on the field. Without a practice day it will be very difficult to implement a good autonomous/hybrid mode.

Additional Cost for Michigan Championship - Even if our team made it to the Michigan Championship, I'm not sure we would be able to raise the funds to compete in it.

Overall:

I like the idea. I think its going to give us more time to compete with our robot while still keeping costs down. And as mentioned, its a pilot, if it doesn't work FIRST can kill it. If it does work, however, I can see this moving on to all of FIRST.

I think practice days should still be part of a regional competition.
Its not that I think teams need more time to fix any bugs that their robot has, its the other factors that we have no control over.
In 2006 and '07 when we tried to calibrate and get our CMU cam to work properly, different venues lighting were slightly different causing what we think is the reason for its malfunction at times. It also gives teams time to meet each other, check out other robots, and scout.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by FoXy92

One thing I haven't picked up out of the discussion here is how Michigan teams are going to qualify for Atlanta. Do you go for winning districts? States? How/Where will Chairman's be awarded? Etc. If anyone could help me out it would be greatly appreciated.

I have mixed feelings at this point. This could either be the future of FIRST, or... unsuccessful. But hey, that's why this is a pilot right? We're bound to learn something from it, so it can't be all bad.

Advancement is covered well in the documents linked on the FIRST homepage announcement and Beth's post. 18 teams will qualify for Atlanta from the Michigan Championship event. There will be two ways to advance - the awards won at the championship (Chairmans, EI, winners, etc) plus the points earned through the entire season.

[Jim Zondag]

[quote=francistexas;759567]
MI teams are saving money, yes...unless you merit Atlanta, compared to teams who qualify through one regional.
[quote]

I guess what you say could possibly be true, but did not actually happen last year. From the 118 teams in Michigan, only 4 went to one regional and Atlanta. None of these 4 earned their way in to Atlanta, they purchased open slots and did not qualify thru competition. So I guess if you want to do one event and try to get lucky, you can go out of state. Here in Michigan we are going to try to reduce randomness as much as possible and implement a system in which all competing teams get enough matches to more definitively determine who is the best. If you want to depend on luck, go to the casino. FIRST is about Math and Science. Statistic 101 says, if you take more samples, you can sort more robustly. The new system will definitely be much better at promoting the best robots.

Obviously cannot be proved until we execute, but I would be willing to bet that the level of competition at the 2009 MI championship will be better than at any other regional event in the world.