New FIRST competition structure in Michigan

[maltz1881]

One thing you have to take into account, a regional here in Mi. cost approx $250,000.00 to put on, that takes a ton of sponsors.

We put the Kettering Rookie Event on for under $15,000.00. If my memory serves me correctly it was closer to $13,000.00.

If you take that $15,000.00 and x by 7 you are still under 1/2 of what a regional costs here.

It would be mucher easier going to a sponsor to say for that $15,000.00 you can be the sole sponsor ( yes I know FIRST wants as many as possible) than it would be to raise that 1/4 million dollars.

We could take that $125-130,000.00 and help struggling teams.

Each year a generous donor gives approx $50,000.00 for new teams to start up. They each get the $6,000.00 if needed. We have a great infastructure here in Michigan.

Remember it is Dean's dream for every school to have a team !!

[Cory]

Originally Posted by maltz1881

One thing you have to take into account, a regional here in Mi. cost approx $250,000.00 to put on, that takes a ton of sponsors.

We put the Kettering Rookie Event on for under $15,000.00. If my memory serves me correctly it was closer to $13,000.00.

If you take that $15,000.00 and x by 7 you are still under 1/2 of what a regional costs here.

It would be mucher easier going to a sponsor to say for that $15,000.00 you can be the sole sponsor ( yes I know FIRST wants as many as possible) than it would be to raise that 1/4 million dollars.

We could take that $125-130,000.00 and help struggling teams.

Each year a generous donor gives approx $50,000.00 for new teams to start up. They each get the $6,000.00 if needed. We have a great infastructure here in Michigan.

Remember it is Dean's dream for every school to have a team !!

I refuse to believe that you can put on an event not named IRI equivalent in stature and atmosphere to a normal regional with only $15,000. I'd love to see proof otherwise.

Furthermore, if it's *that* easy to cut $235,000 off the price of a regional, why hasn't it happened before now?

Something doesn't add up.

And to the point that you could take the other $130,000 and spread it to the teams--if you tell a sponsor that an event costs 15 times less than it used to, they will probably either cut their donation by a corresponding amount, or wonder what the heck their money has been going to previously, for it to be that much more expensive.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

I wouldn't use professional, but I would use 'less worthy of potentially [tens of] thousands of dollars our money for sponsorship'. Or less 'Wow, that's really unique!' and more 'oh, you have one of those teams too? That's um... nice. Now can you let me get back to work?'.

Look at your local high school sports teams. Chances are if they have team sponsors, it's places like Joe's Service Station or Hometown Bank for amounts like $250 or $500. You don't see Nike or Adidas or Reebok sponsoring high school sports teams for $5k, $10k or $20k+ each. Why? Because there are just so many of them - it wouldn't be economically feasible.

FRC teams as they currently stand can enjoy a lot higher corporate sponsorships than high school sports teams largely because they aren't in every high school, and because they can have a positive effect for the sponsoring company.

And my greatest concern is that it is impossible to cut so much "excess costs" from FRC that it becomes cheap enough to get into every high school without sacrificing the core strengths of FRC from the program. If they do manage to get it cheap enough, you'll end up with a program that more or less is exactly the same as FTC or IFI Vex.

So why kill your "crown jewel" competition model, the one that is great for getting large name sponsors [and their sponsorship donations] and for exciting and inspiring everyone with something that is "over the top" of all the rest of the robotics competitions, just to turn it into a low-cost program that already exists?

It all comes down to economics. I don't think it is economically possible to get FRC into every high school in the country. And this is coming from someone who lives in what is often cited as the "richest state" in the country. There's a reason why the number of new FRC teams in Connecticut hasn't drastically changed for years - and that's all the major sources of funding (corporate and government) have already been been tapped.

And in these economic hard times, with many town and state governments running in the red and pushing severe budget cuts to get into the black, and companies looking to shed excess costs anywhere they can to stay afloat, this isn't the time to look to press for huge expansion of the program. Rather, this is the time to hunker down, shore up the existing resources, and wait until the economy improves to begin a large growth of the program. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for failure when you can't get the necessary funding in place to properly do a district-level competition, and that's not fair for the teams who are "locked-in" to that format.

I'm not opposed to growing FIRST by any measure, but I am opposed to doing it unsustainably. I'm tired of constantly pushing to get new teams started, just to watch them fade after a year or two because there isn't enough companies in the area to provide the sponsorship to keep them afloat. There are much better, cheaper methods (FTC and Vex) that are a lot more sustainable for immediate large growth of the program.

So you're saying that FIRST should be more elite, that we should not seek to give other students the opportunities that are there for existing teams today. And that without all the bells and whistles at a competition, no one would be inspired by the 6 weeks of work in build season - which, I might point out, in most cases is done in a non-professional high school shop!

Originally Posted by Cory

I refuse to believe that you can put on an event not named IRI equivalent in stature and atmosphere to a normal regional with only $15,000. I'd love to see proof otherwise.

Furthermore, if it's *that* easy to cut $235,000 off the price of a regional, why hasn't it happened before now?

Something doesn't add up.

And to the point that you could take the other $130,000 and spread it to the teams--if you tell a sponsor that an event costs 15 times less than it used to, they will probably either cut their donation by a corresponding amount, or wonder what the heck their money has been going to previously, for it to be that much more expensive.

What's so special about IRI except for the teams that show up? Granted, the school is huge and the space is more than ample. But it's the people that are putting on the event that make it work. That's what happened at the Kettering Rookie event.

I am not privy to the figures, but I imagine there are two tremendous sources of cost savings. First, the cost of the arena itself. And second, the professional event management. At IRI and at Kettering you didn't see coordinators running around with headsets. Queuers used sneaker communications, not radio. Volunteers served meals, not a catering service. Do those little things make the competition any less?

I will admit that, with smaller district competitions, the powerhouse teams won't all be at the same events. So maybe a rookie team won't be able to be quite so inspired by being able to play with (or against!) 47, 217, 27, 503, 469 and 67 at one event. But they might see 4 out of the 6 of them at their 2 events - and if they make it to the state championships they will likely see all of them.

The choice had to be made. Either FRC changes, or FRC becomes inaccessable for new teams. Or maybe in order to allow new rookie teams in, some veteran teams would have to be given a year off in a rotating schedule. Or we'd have to limit teams to only one regional each. Wouldn't that be met with wailing and gnashing of teeth!

[maltz1881]

Well I do have the info. I was the volunteer coordinator. We did do the event for the price I stated earlier. Kettering donated the space, we didn't have to pay the $100,000.00 for an arena.

We didn't have to rent the automation equipment, we were able to borrow it from on of our committee members who is a top engineer at Delphi.

Why is that you think that because you don't spend a ton of money it can't be top notch? Trust me, it was incredible. Something that I am proud to say I helped put on.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by maltz1881

Well I do have the info. I was the volunteer coordinator. We did do the event for the price I stated earlier. Kettering donated the space, we didn't have to pay the $100,000.00 for an arena.

We didn't have to rent the automation equipment, we were able to borrow it from on of our committee members who is a top engineer at Delphi.

Why is that you think that because you don't spend a ton of money it can't be top notch? Trust me, it was incredible. Something that I am proud to say I helped put on.

Relying on donations immediately calls into question the sustainability and extensibility of this pilot, as far as I'm concerned. While it's fantastic that Kettering was willing to donate space to hold the competition, we can't forget that there are schools with teams that charge them for use of their own facilities!

I've looked at the photos of the Kettering Event and I'm not impressed. It obviously lacked the polish and sophistication of a regional event -- and it wasn't because the volunteers did not have radios. My apologies to those involved, but it appeared amateurish -- from its lack of pipe and drape to the projected images bleeding off the edge of the screen. I've never gone to Major League Baseball game to find out that somebody didn't know how to turn on the jumbotron.

[Greg Marra]

I don't understand why so many people are upset that FIRST might be moving from a shiny-fancy model to a more-competitions model. The State Championship and the World Championship still exist, and they're going to be just as big and shiny as ever.

It seems people are getting in a huff because their FIRST experience is going to get "watered down" being in a high school gymnasium instead of a hockey arena. How many other people are going to get an experience with FIRST that they wouldn't have otherwise gotten because we are saturating regionals and unable to reduce the economic barriers to running competitions?

Originally Posted by M. Krass

Relying on donations immediately calls into question the sustainability and extensibility of this pilot, as far as I'm concerned.

Where do you think money for Regional competitions comes from? Boston University (graciously!) allows the Boston Regional to use their facility, and many more local corporations and schools donate the significant amounts of money it takes to orchestrate an event of that scale. In that regard, Boston is potentially unsustainable as well.

Originally Posted by Art Dutra

I wouldn't use professional, but I would use 'less worthy of potentially [tens of] thousands of dollars our money for sponsorship'. Or less 'Wow, that's really unique!' and more 'oh, you have one of those teams too? That's um... nice. Now can you let me get back to work?'.

If FIRST gets to the point where it's "Oh, you have a robotics team too?" then we've accomplished our mission. The goal isn't to have "special" high schools that are able to have robotics teams, the goal is to inspire people to be interested in science, technology, engineering, and math and to incite cultural change. Robotics teams being dime a dozen sounds like cultural change to me. If you can get Robotics on the same model as Football then you don't need $10,000 sponsors.

I think people need to stop thinking about how this change would personally affect them, and consider the effects that it will have on FIRST as a whole. There are a lot of people who you've never met and might not even know FIRST exists right now who would immensely benefit from the experience this new program could offer them.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Greg Marra

Where do you think money for Regional competitions comes from? Boston University (graciously!) allows the Boston Regional to use their facility, and many more local corporations and schools donate the significant amounts of money it takes to orchestrate an event of that scale. In that regard, Boston is potentially unsustainable as well.

The point is that the money is used to pay professionals in their respective fields to organize these events. The donors themselves -- whether they be colleges and universities or large corporations -- do not have the expertise or capacity to manage a show. In fact, the donors frequently hire the very same people that FIRST does and others like them to handle events like our regional events.

I think something will be lost -- consistency, for one -- when we excise the professionals from the process and instead rely on a friend's uncle somewhere that has an amp leftover from his garage band days for the event's A/V setup. It seems unlikely that these committees will be able to get the many companies that are currently contracted for things like A/V to donate their services -- and do so many times over. It's not as if nobody ever thought to ask, "Hey, will you all do this for free?"

We're paying these people for their services because it's ensured a consistent level of quality at all events -- and I can't imagine how, if services of their caliber are available for free and many times over -- why regional planning committees still decide to pay for this stuff. It just doesn't make sense.

[waialua359]

FIRST events should not be watered down.
Teachers, mentors, students, know better that its the learning experience that counts. But, do the stakeholders that help support teams know better?

Why do people have huge banners of their sponsors? Many of them are a business first, and anything to help put them in the spotlight in a high quality event with lots of news coverage is important to them.
Its the harsh reality of it all.

Bells and whistles on your robot and the event, puts an audience in awe. At our regional, guess who was on the front page, in the news, and in all other media coverage. The PINK team! Why, because they had an awesome eye-candy robot in addition to looking cool with their pink shirts and having a spirited attitude.

The Hawaii Regional planning committee spent nearly 30,000.00 for a Friday social event near the beach. It was THE best social even for me who has lived here all my life.
If instead to save cost, we did some watered down version in a much less scenic area with low-budget food, sure.......we could say we saved money, and it isn't the point of FIRST. But, the comments by everyone was that it was an event they would never forget. Heck, one team said it made up for the frustrating day they had earlier.

Having a fabulous experience can only help when teams look to sacrifice year after year in spreading the word of FIRST. We all know that anyone that does FIRST makes huge sacrifices in time, money, and personal life.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

So you're saying that FIRST should be more elite, that we should not seek to give other students the opportunities that are there for existing teams today. And that without all the bells and whistles at a competition, no one would be inspired by the 6 weeks of work in build season - which, I might point out, in most cases is done in a non-professional high school shop!

I'm not saying that at all, in fact, quite the opposite. I one-hundred percent believe FIRST should get into every school in the country, but I don't think FRC is the perfect vehicle for that widespread expansion.

FRC != FIRST. FIRST is about much more than FRC; it's also about FTC, FLL, and JFLL. It is a lot easier to get one (or two, or three, or four) FTC or Vex team(s) in every high school in the country than is is to get an FRC team into every high school in the country.

As such, I would rather see every high school get a FTC or Vex team first. Not only is it a lot more economically feasible, but the entire competition model of FTC/Vex is much better suited for a large scale competition with tens of thousands of teams. (Everything about FTC or Vex costs but a fraction of even the cheapest FRC off-season competitions).

Once FTC or Vex gets into 60-80% or more of all high schools, then come back to talk about looking to get as many of those expanded to FRC, as by then the necessary support infrastructure is already in place, and over the very short term goals, we have expanded the scope of FIRST much more than a [cheaper] FRC could ever have.

That is not elitism, that is looking to get the opportunity and inspiration of FIRST, as far reaching as quickly and cheaply as possible. That's like anti-elitism.

I have no qualms about FRC expanding to district-level competitions, I just believe that FIRST isn't pursuing the most cost- and resource-efficient methods for expanding the scope of their outreach.

[Akash Rastogi]

i really wanted to go to a Michigan regional this year.

[Cynette]

Best of luck FIRST Michigan with your pilot program!

I for one am excited that FIRST is stepping out of their comfort zone to try something different. Will the next year be problem free? Probably not. Should that stop FIRST from trying at all? I hope not, because that is the same determination that is needed to survive in today's world, the same persistence that FIRST instills in the students it inspires, the willingness to take a risk and try something that many say can't or shouldn't be done.

I'm also excited that there will be even more opportunities to volunteer at FIRST events. That is one of our team's mentors goals this year - to go to other areas and volunteer - and this initiative will give us so many more choices and chances.

I guess I never knew that FIRST was about the regional events being all polished and pretty. I thought it was about the team building, robot designing, robot building, solving problems, getting the future excited about science and technology and engineering. And yes, the regional competitions are key to building that enthusiasm, but I've been to regionals in several venues and know that the enthusiasm and excitement comes from much more that curtains and audio-visual equipment.

Originally Posted by waialua359

FIRST events should not be watered down.
Teachers, mentors, students, know better that its the learning experience that counts. But, do the stakeholders that help support teams know better?

Why do people have huge banners of their sponsors? Many of them are a business first, and anything to help put them in the spotlight in a high quality event with lots of news coverage is important to them.
Its the harsh reality of it all.

Bells and whistles on your robot and the event, puts an audience in awe. At our regional, guess who was on the front page, in the news, and in all other media coverage. The PINK team! Why, because they had an awesome eye-candy robot in addition to looking cool with their pink shirts and having a spirited attitude.

See! It is about the teams, not the venues! Until we hear where the district competitions are going to be, why should we expect that they are going to feel any less like a regional?

And audiences in awe! Is it better to have a packed gymnasium or a massive but sparsely filled stadium? Especially stadiums where you are not allowed to hang those banners where you have proudly printed your sponsor's names?

Originally Posted by waialua359

The Hawaii Regional planning committee spent nearly 30,000.00 for a Friday social event near the beach. It was THE best social even for me who has lived here all my life.
If instead to save cost, we did some watered down version in a much less scenic area with low-budget food, sure.......we could say we saved money, and it isn't the point of FIRST. But, the comments by everyone was that it was an event they would never forget. Heck, one team said it made up for the frustrating day they had earlier.

And based on the attendance of the Hawaii regional, that came out to $10-15 a person. That is not too extravagant, nor is that in indicator of quality of a regional over a district event. Some regionals offer pizza and games for their social, some host them in interesting places, and some don't have one at all. Most charge extra, so while I'm glad that Hawaii's social was awesome, it neither adds to nor subtracts from the events in Michigan.

Originally Posted by waialua359

Having a fabulous experience can only help when teams look to sacrifice year after year in spreading the word of FIRST. We all know that anyone that does FIRST makes huge sacrifices in time, money, and personal life.

You all make the experience fabulous! And honestly I have to say that I’ve had fabulous experiences at tiny off-seasons, big off-seasons, pre-ship rallies, small regionals and big regionals and at the championship event. I really hope that you all aren't sacrificing all of your time, money, and personal life just to go to a super-de-duper regional event. Because FIRST is way more than that. And I’m hoping that this pilot program can bring that FIRST experience to many more students and schools in Michigan.

[nikeairmancurry]

Well I do like the idea of the cost effective district regionals and then holding a big one for the state. What I feel could be an issue for some people/teams is the way the points system is gonig to be deault with. I lookd throught the way the points would be awarded and the problems i see could come more or less what distrcit regional you go to. Living in Southeast Michigan were the supply of high quality teams is the greatest, it could prevent a problem to smaller teams also in the area. The agurement is if there are only two district regionals in this area and they might as weel be regualr FRC regionals based on team competiveness.
The elite teams will take alot of the points away from the smaller teams preventing them from being able to go on to the State Regional and have a shot at Atlanta. But that is just my small problem, yet it could be possible that this issue really never comes up. But like eeryone else i'll have to wait until march to see.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

I'm not saying that at all, in fact, quite the opposite. I one-hundred percent believe FIRST should get into every school in the country, but I don't think FRC is the perfect vehicle for that widespread expansion.

FRC != FIRST. FIRST is about much more than FRC; it's also about FTC, FLL, and JFLL. It is a lot easier to get one (or two, or three, or four) FTC or Vex team(s) in every high school in the country than is is to get an FRC team into every high school in the country.

As such, I would rather see every high school get a FTC or Vex team first. Not only is it a lot more economically feasible, but the entire competition model of FTC/Vex is much better suited for a large scale competition with tens of thousands of teams. (Everything about FTC or Vex costs but a fraction of even the cheapest FRC off-season competitions).

Once FTC or Vex gets into 60-80% or more of all high schools, then come back to talk about looking to get as many of those expanded to FRC, as by then the necessary support infrastructure is already in place, and over the very short term goals, we have expanded the scope of FIRST much more than a [cheaper] FRC could ever have.

That is not elitism, that is looking to get the opportunity and inspiration of FIRST, as far reaching as quickly and cheaply as possible. That's like anti-elitism.

I have no qualms about FRC expanding to district-level competitions, I just believe that FIRST isn't pursuing the most cost- and resource-efficient methods for expanding the scope of their outreach.

And taken to the ridiculous extreme, the counter-argument to that position is that we should cancel FRC entirely until FTC or Vex gets near saturation. After all, that's most cost effective, right?

Either you make a form of FRC available for all-comers, or you are acting in an elite fashion - someone is kept out because they aren't deserving of it yet. Who will make the determination of who can enter?

I don't agree with everything FIRST in Michigan is doing. I have reservations about some aspects of this proposal. But I recognize that we can't stick with business as normal because costs and resources are being stretched to the limits.

Even if these districts can't all be run with a budget of $15,000, they can surely be done much cheaper than regionals. If $500,000 is saved by not holding Detroit and West Michigan as traditional regionals, and 7 districts are run on an average of $20,000 or $40,000 - well, as Mark is wont to say, "That's why we do the math!"

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

And taken to the ridiculous extreme, the counter-argument to that position is that we should cancel FRC entirely until FTC or Vex gets near saturation. After all, that's most cost effective, right?

Either you make a form of FRC available for all-comers, or you are acting in an elite fashion - someone is kept out because they aren't deserving of it yet. Who will make the determination of who can enter?

I don't agree with everything FIRST in Michigan is doing. I have reservations about some aspects of this proposal. But I recognize that we can't stick with business as normal because costs and resources are being stretched to the limits.

Even if these districts can't all be run with a budget of $15,000, they can surely be done much cheaper than regionals. If $500,000 is saved by not holding Detroit and West Michigan as traditional regionals, and 7 districts are run on an average of $20,000 or $40,000 - well, as Mark is wont to say, "That's why we do the math!"

I am really quite saddened that my entire argument about the economics and financial feasibility of getting FRC into every high school has been essentially reduced deteriorated into practically a personal "you-are-with-us-or-you-are-against-us" attack of my supposed "elitism".

All I am doing is presenting an opposing view, highlighting any possible glitches that may be on the path forward to expanding FIRST. If no one ever stepped forward in life when they saw a potential flaw in anything, nothing in life would ever succeed. So rather than chime along with an endless series of "Yes! Great Plan! I'm with you 100%! Carry on full steam!", I am pressing issues which I see with this plan to make everyone on the whole think a lot more deeply about this and any potential implications and complications this idea would constitute. Consider it a well-crafted disguise of reverse psychology*.

If I was financially successful in life and had the means, I would give $6k to every high school in the country to start an FRC team, along with a few other charities, like Make a Wish. Without hesitation. But I'm not [yet, hopefully ] at that kind of a position in life, so I give what I can - time and experience - to two FRC teams, several Vex teams, and various times volunteering at FIRST events all over. I estimate that among all of those, I probably spend several hundred hours per year donating my time and efforts to FIRST-related teams and events.

If I didn't care about the program - the mission of FIRST - then I (along with everyone else here) wouldn't do all that, and I certainly wouldn't be here right now.


* But don't take that statement to mean that I will cease to stand by many of my original criticisms of their plan. Things never improve through rubber stamping. And if you don't believe me, I think you and I would see eye to eye on this issue if this quote "Either you make a form of FRC available for all-comers, or you are acting in an elite fashion" was instead worded like this "Either you make a form of FIRST available for all-comers, or you are acting in an elite fashion". It's a bit presumptuous if we (or FIRST) should determine which program a school should participate in; that should be the school's decision based upon the available space, time, resource, faculty, and financial conditions of their school. No one knows what they are capable of more than themselves. The only thing that really matters is that they are involved in some way, and inspiring students.

[GaryVoshol]

Art, I'm not trying to make this personal with you or anyone else. But I think that what several people are missing in this conversation is that something had to change, or teams would not be able to enter FRC, no matter how many resources they had. FRC is reaching capacity in Michigan. In order to allow additional teams to join in the near future, something had to change. Sure new teams could do VEX*. But then the same arguments come back - "It's not the same thing." "It's not as exciting." "Those little robots on a 12-foot arena in a gym aren't as inspiring as the big bots in an arena."

The other thing this pilot hopes to do is address a major concern that has been raised by many teams over the years - the cost. It appears that it lowers the initial cost from $6000 to $5000, and then gives teams more for that money - two competitions instead of one. Plus with more competition sites, less travel expenses.

I'm not rubber-stamping anything. I had no hand in putting any of this together, and if I had there would be aspects that I would be questioning. I think though that I can trust the crew that had a hand in it, that they are acting in good faith. I also think that I can trust that if this doesn't work out, it will be modified to make it work or given up and something else will be found. Something had to change. Let's see if this is a good solution or not.

Gary

* Don't even get me started on why they can't do FTC in "certain states like Michigan".