Barriers to Entry: Why schools DON'T join FIRST

[techtiger1]

I think having a willing teacher and good tech program is key. That to me is the top reason why schools don't join FIRST they can't or don't have a teacher that wants to be dedicated to the cause year in and year it. My five years of experience has shown me this not that this is alot. In my community this is what I c going on besides the issues already mentioned:money, other programs,etc.

[bigbeezy]

Our County has been very good with accepting FIRST. We, as well as a number of other teams in the county, have shown what FIRST is all about to our Superintendant of Schools and he has fallen in Love with FIRST. By 2010, I believe, EVERY high school in the county will have its own team. And, I’m not sure about a timeline, EVERY middle and elementary school will have a Lego League Team (most already do).

When school administration doesn’t understand FIRST then lots of barriers get put up. They tend to just see the huge price tag. Also there needs to be a willing teacher or someone who is able to spend countless hours running the team. It’s not like a small sport where they meet for just one little part of the year. It’s a year round commitment. Not to mention some areas just don’t have the companies that are able, especially in these times, to put up $10,000+ a year.

Maybe what Michigan is doing is a step in the right direction. Some smaller low cost competitions where more teams can afford to compete.

[Martinez]

Originally Posted by bigbeezy

Our County has been very good with accepting FIRST. We, as well as a number of other teams in the county, have shown what FIRST is all about to our Superintendant of Schools and he has fallen in Love with FIRST. By 2010, I believe, EVERY high school in the county will have its own team. And, I’m not sure about a timeline, EVERY middle and elementary school will have a Lego League Team (most already do).

That's absolutely amazing. Hopefully you can be model that every other region can then follow. I firmly stand by the FIRST vision of having it be available to every student across the country. Of course, one major impact of this is that fact that I was in 8 different schools growing up and NONE of them have FIRST today. We have alot of work to do. However, when the energy is placed on "evangalism" there are two problems I for see.

1) Media word of mouth will never be enough. Once someone has created a team, they are likely to be content with the work and people they have, thus not feeling the need to expand outward.

2) If the burden is placed on current teams, alot of them don't have the time, talent, or resources to provide mentorship or guidance towards the communities they live in so that those communities want more FIRST Teams.

Personally I would love to work for FIRST. Not IFI, but FIRST as their equivilant to a District Executive that the Boy Scouts have. Executives (in the Boy Scout sense) are responsible for maintaining the vitaltiy of their region in terms of quality programs and applicable numbers. Their districts are only a few small cities in size, so basically I would invision such a role as supporting Binghamton, Ithaca and Syracuse. We have a loooooong way to go before I see that happening.

Right now as I understand it, we only have Regional Executives like one for the entire NE and their main responsiblity is focused on Regionals. Thats a huge area of coverage AND we are missing the other side of the coin which is supporting those teams that already exist.

Here is another example of how I see FIRST as a Movement:
1) Our goal is to start a forest fire
2) We only have a box full of matches
3) Often we try to light full thick logs of wood
4) Then we wonder why it doesn't catch on.

If we REALLY want to get this off the ground, smaller scales and smaller regions are critical. I'm not say we should end things as they are now. Far from it. How ever there must be some middle ground so that new institutions can feed and grow into what exists today. What was VEX I see as a good beginning step, but lets face it, there is a massive difference between it and FIRST Robotics.

Personally, I think we need MORE off season completitions. Smaller, family friendly events that have easy access. Many identified prerookie teams are even able to have donated robots to compete. Now... just imagine how HUGE it could be if prerookie teams were allowed to invest say $2,500 into substidized old parts from IFI (like just a drive train) for offseason comps. Then we say, your allowed to use that drive train in the upcoming season since these are your basic buidling blocks. If you can't afford the $10,000 price tag for a full program it might be enough to get in the door and be hooked.

Think small, dream big, change the world. There is something to be said about a gradual growth process. Us FIRSTers are not good that "thinking small," but alot of people do and then we wonder why its so hard for them to catch our enthusism.

I also recommend people look into the work thats been done in Church Structures. Yeah I know, religion bad word. But if you think of them interms of communities it really makes sense. I think we need to understand some of this theory work if we as a body want to expand and grow. These Structures are built around size and resources. Like wise, these Structures have their own unique needs and orientations:

1) Family
So think of VEX as Family. Or, we really might not have a family struture. These are communities that are laylead lead, with only a few people of shared vaules. Having a robot in of itself is a major accomplishment. Right now I don't think they have a home. I should think on this and see if I can come up with some more applicable theory work.

2) Pastorial
I think this is where 75% of teams are at. The focus is around a "minister," which would be the teacher and a few key engineers. Great stuff, and its very personal. I'd say Chuck falls into this catagory. These are teams that enjoy qualifying round, but may not have the talent yet to always get picked.

3) Program
These are the teams who try for lots of different awards with in FIRST. Everyone can't do it all, and there is specialization by interest. There is likely even specialization within components on the robot. These are teams at regionals who frequently pick and get the most excitement in eliminations. They make it to Championships when ever possible.

There are also huge barriers to go from a Pastorial to Program structure, which I won't go into. I would say Division by Zero falls into this catagory. I also think a major source of frustration for me on Chuck, is this is the environment I thrive on and there is absolutely no interest in becoming a Program structured team.

4) Megas
These are the Legends. You recognize them, not just due to sheer size but also the tremendous amount of good work they're able to level. While usually lead by a few key visionaries, their success and energy is a major force of staying power. I'm talking your teams like Moe and X-Cats. You would be hard pressed not see them at Championships year after year. They always step up to the challange of winning Chairmens or making those elimnations.

Good stuff I hope, and its amazing the things you learn at a Leadership Training Camp.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Martinez

Here is another example of how I see FIRST as a Movement:
1) Our goal is to start a forest fire
2) We only have a box full of matches
3) Often we try to light full thick logs of wood
4) Then we wonder why it doesn't catch on.

If we REALLY want to get this off the ground, smaller scales and smaller regions are critical. I'm not say we should end things as they are now. Far from it. How ever there must be some middle ground so that new institutions can feed and grow into what exists today. What was VEX I see as a good beginning step, but lets face it, there is a massive difference between it and FIRST Robotics.

But drop one match on the ground in the dead leaves and small, rotting wood and what happens?

That's what happened with VEX/FVC/possibly FTC. We went to a smaller scale, lower cost and it caught on like wildfire. But, as fires go, it needs fresh fuel.

[IKE]

Talking with the technology teacher in my hometown it was cost. He has a supermileage team that runs on a budget of $1500 a year. While they feel that the program would be an awesome experience, they feel they can't justify the expense.

[R2D2DOC]

How about the attempt by Michigan FIRST to address alot of these issues. As mentioned in this thread, FIRST is handling a lot of the large scale issues and schools are in the lower levels of details. The Michigan FIRST program should help to fill the gap.

Any thoughts?

[dragoonex]

Even as a team that has participted in FIRST for 3 years now we still have major difficulty entering the competition each year. The problems really fall into two categories: Money and Faculty.

Money has always been an issue for us. In terms of school funding, we get next to nothing. Our school board won't sponsor us, and our school is only willing to give us $50. So we always have to find a lot of sponsors each year. Luckily this year we found a great sponsor/mentor who helped us greatly.

Faculty is also starting to become an issue. Our team only has one teacher sponsor and it is not reasonable for us to ask him to supervise us every meeting. He's a very busy person. We found another teacher sponsor to help us this year and that has helped, but faculty is still a big issue. Our mentor offered his shop to us, but that brought up another problem and that's transportation. Most of our meetings are held after school and bringing 20 or so students to his shop is difficult, especially in Canadian winters.

School rules are also a problem, but luckily our principle is fully behind the robotics program and even found us a very generous sponsor.

However, I think for most teams, these are the common barriers to entry.

[wendymom]

Brevard County in Florida has an awesome superintendent who is really pushing the program and its wonderful. However in Orange County next door they barely know we exist and have enough problems with finances as it is so that expecting a school to come up with 10K while having to trim 7% out of every school budget just wont happen.

The good news is that you don't have to have a school in order to have a team. We are a 4-H team and as such we don't have to jump through hoops. It is a huge commitment from parents and other professional mentors but there are many of us so the risk and responsibilities are spread out. We have to raise all of our own money but so do lots of school teams.

I think the money and time commitment are what keep schools from joining. Our parents run the team so as long as their are kids who want to be in FIRST, we will have a team.

[gorrilla]

one of our mentors lee johnson got the superintendent of Brevard county interested in lego leauge for all the middle schools and elementary schools in the county


with 1557 being the only team in our entire county its hard to get things going because we are the only ones, we do a presentation at the local streetfest and arent really having that much success but we did recieve a very generous donation from two former mentors of 1902 who recently moved to eustis!

[lasereyes]

I've been trying to get a school to join the FRC. Their main problems are the fact that they cannot get the start-up investment or mentors to help them.

Another big factor for a rookie team is that many people on that team may not be sure if building a robot of that magnitude is possible in 6 weeks (I used to be one of those people...).

[EOC]

It's all about the cost; every time I try to recruit an area high school the reception is very positive until I explain the money envolved; at that point they lose interest and state the cost is prohibitive.
Less cost = more teams!

[gblake]

... every time I try to recruit an area high school the reception is very positive until I explain the money envolved; at that point they lose interest and state the cost is prohibitive. ...

Well then - Don't affiliate with a school!

Teams need one or more students and one or more adult mentors. School affiliation is not required. Just ask MOE or all the other teams that are not a part of a single school or school system.

I feel that far too many of the posts in this thread assume that affiliation with a school, and that school's faculty and facilities, is the one and only way an FRC team starts or survives. Well, an affiliation of that sort simply is not necessary (It usually helps, but it certainly isn't necessary; and lack of one should not be a show-stopper).

If a lack of school support, faculty support, or school facilities has been stopping you or your team from moving forward - I suggest taking a step back and re-assessing your situation - Maybe that particular type of support isn't really necessary after all, and the path forward is more clear than you realized....

Blake

[hallk]

Cost and facility needs can be a challenge but I think the biggest struggle is TIME. It takes a lot of time and effort for a new team to start. Money and mentors can always be found but there is no way to get more time. Some are intimated by what they see and don't think that they can ever do it. Some don't realize what a commitment this program requires and never really get off the ground.
Solution to most FIRST related problems? 26 hour days.

[Pat Arnold]

Originally Posted by gblake

Well then - Don't affiliate with a school!

Teams need one or more students and one or more adult mentors. School affiliation is not required. Just ask MOE or all the other teams that are not a part of a single school or school system.

I feel that far too many of the posts in this thread assume that affiliation with a school, and that school's faculty and facilities, is the one and only way an FRC team starts or survives. Well, an affiliation of that sort simply is not necessary (It usually helps, but it certainly isn't necessary; and lack of one should not be a show-stopper).

If a lack of school support, faculty support, or school facilities has been stopping you or your team from moving forward - I suggest taking a step back and re-assessing your situation - Maybe that particular type of support isn't really necessary after all, and the path forward is more clear than you realized....

Blake

Affiliation with a school is certainly not required. I have great respect for teams who are able to function well without one; my only experience has been with Jupiter High School's MARS team. Although MARS Team 1523 recently considered leaving its school-based roots (to become a 4H group or to incorporate as a 501c3, etc.), many factors made the team work hard to remain affiliated with a high school.

Reasons included:

• Difficulty finding a business sponsor willing to provide work space & particularly tool/machine access due to insurance/liability issues.
• Some sponsors reporting that their financial support was contingent on affiliation with a school group.
• The perceived effort & knowledge deemed necessary to become a 501c3 (we use the school's tax ID #).
• The team's rapid growth due to inclusion in the school's yearly new student orientation, yearbook exposure, classroom announcements, School Advisory Council agenda, etc.

Sure there are many barriers working within the bureaucracy of a school, but there are also some great resources when the partnership works. My opinion is that parental involvement & support are hugely valuable when promoting FIRST with School Boards, principals, & teachers.

[A. Snodgrass]

Another barrier that I haven't noticed mentioned is for the teams coming from either a) different countries or b) whom are not part of the 48 continental states, transportation costs can bring the amount of money required for investment up much higher then it otherwise would be.

This has changed in the last couple of years in Hawai'i, not so much for Alaska as of yet.

However, distance from a regional competition has to be stated as a potential barrier to growth and development of the FIRST Robotics program for groups from certain areas. When there is no regional within a day to two days driving distance, the amount of money to make it to the regional certainly expands.

On not affiliating with a school, I've seen a couple of teams on the west coast effectively form teams unassociated with a school through groups like Girl Scouts. This is a solution that, as has been pointed out earlier, enables the group involved to get past school rivalries, and it can assist in the development of a team within an area that could not potentially support having a FIRST Robotics team at every high school. A side benefit to associating yourself with a group like this can be that there are potentially discounted places you could stay near the regional, or group rates that they can take for plane tickets if the regional is far away.

Another barrier that I would point out can be the perspective of FIRST for companies within the community, and occasionally within the FIRST community itself. Yes, FIRST exposes high school students to engineering, math and science fields, with the added benefit of encouraging those same students to go into engineering, math and science in college. However, there are additional benefits that come out of this competition. These benefits are things like teambuilding, time management and organization skills, critical thinking, creative thinking, goal setting, and enthusiasm for a final product. These are skills that can be useful in many different fields, not JUST engineering.

I hope that this provides some food for thought.