New FIRST competition structure in Michigan

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

No, I'm not missing that point. I'm looking beyond that point. What do we do when no schools, no matter what their resources, can join FRC because there is no place for them to compete?

Thus my disagreement with "certain states like Michigan" which do not have FTC. But that still doesn't address the concern of how to allow FRC for schools that can afford it.

There is no FTC events in New Hampshire either ... that being said, that does not preclude having a FTC team in New Hampshire.

I guess the question I have is:

With such great support for FRC, why can't Michigan have FTC for those that cannot afford FRC.

Again, create a tiered structure so that those that can afford/have support will have an FRC team while those who cannot afford/don't have support for an FRC team could have an FTC team.

I mean, Is there a law or ordinance against FTC in Michigan? or is it just that they all want to play in the big leagues even if they cannot afford it?

Again, I wish 'FIRST in Michigan' all the success and I hope the orgainizers have done their homework because the devil is always in the details.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

Look at your local high school sports teams. Chances are if they have team sponsors, it's places like Joe's Service Station or Hometown Bank for amounts like $250 or $500. You don't see Nike or Adidas or Reebok sponsoring high school sports teams for $5k, $10k or $20k+ each. Why? Because there are just so many of them - it wouldn't be economically feasible.

Actually if you talk with a lot of schools the way they fund their sports programs is through ticket sales at their more popular sports (basketball and football typically). The budget is way bigger than most FRC teams. Think about the local football game. I was at a small school and tickets were $2 but there were at least 2000 people in the stands Friday night. They would get 5 home football games a season to rake in about $20k in tickets sales and this is for a school that only graduates 100 people a year. The $250-$500 donations are typically more in line with Little League where I am from (and I am from small town/small budget America). At some of these big HS, they must make a mint at a Friday Night game.

In the past 5 years we have done a lot of local regionals (GLR and Detroit are within 1 hour drive). The great thing about those are that the parents are able to come and support their kids at those events. When we go 2.5 to 4 hours away, only a dedicated few are able to arrive and support their children. These regionals have between 30 and 60 teams that I have been too. While the 60 team GLR is a sight to behold. Our students usually prefer West Michigan beacues it is slightly smaller, but electric with a full crowd.
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We will see how this turns out. My hope this that this works out well and that FIRST will end up adopting a structure that has district events and then 35 "Regionals Championships", and the state lines dissappear again. Since this is a pilot, it is like any other Pilot. Some rules and formatting are for testing, some rules and formatting are there to limit the possible negative effects should it go bad. The "State" limitation I hope is only to limit the pilot to a specific subset of FIRST. This allows for a large enough sample to see how it will work out with out risking FRC for the Majority.
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M.Krass, thank you for noting specific examples of quality differences. To be honest I noticed something was a little different, but couldn't put my finger on it. Overall though it was a really cool event (Malt1881-Thank you and the rest of the crew for a great event). I think this may be one of those examples of the 80/20 development rule that for 50% of the time an resource, you can have an 80% solution. You have to at least double your efforts (time, money, people...) in order to achieve that high level of polish. This rule holds true to many systems throughout the world. The question comes down to whether or not 80% is the best solution. Kelly Johnson of Lockeed Martin stressed this aspect in many of their development projects. Being in the auto-industry, and 80% car will get you at the bottom of every Consumer Report.
I have only been to a few off season events. I have enjoyed every one I have been to, but some more than others. I for one am very excited to give this a try.

[Steve W]

People are going on about the cost of the events. A lot of these costs are dictated by FIRST. We must use certain suppliers and meet certain requirements. I have suggested using other A/V companies to save money but we were told no. In other words, these events will not be the same as "official FRC" qualifying events. There are a lot of ways to save money but hands are tied. I have no issue with trying something new but why not let the regional events try and lower their costs. That said this has nothing to do with registration.

If Michigan teams get their first registration for $5,000.00 then the rest of FIRST should have the same benefit of lower costs. Everyone is talking about the high cost of events yet we will be subsidizing Michigan teams for their first event. Again the down side for Michigan teams is the increase for teams that want to go to Championships. They now have to pay extra to go to the State Championship, increasing their cost to $9,000.00 from the previous $6,000.00 but there is a greater chance of getting a "ticket" to allow them to pay for their Championship experience.

If there are all of these sponsors willing to donate to these extra events, what is stopping Michigan from having 1 or 2 more "Official Qualifying" regional events? There is no doubt in my mind that politics is playing a big part in this as you would think that VEX/FTC would have made a large impact in Michigan yet were barred.

Good luck Michigan, I hope for the best. I pray that this is not the beginning of the end to a great program in such a great State as Michigan.

[vince2171]

Our team from Indiana, Team 2171, will miss coming to Michigan for the Regional next year. We loved competing at the West Michigan Regional and were fortunate enough to win it with Team 71 from Hammond Indiana and Team 2604 from Capac Michigan. We loved competing against the Michigan teams and really liked the University it was held at. We won a hard fought Championship Round against the Bees, the Semifinals against the More Martians who beat us in a match, and remembered the Foley Freeze as a great team.

When our team was picking an alliance at IRI, my daughter ended up choosing the Killer Bees, Foley Freeze, and More Martians as alliance partners.

My daughter is going to be a Senior this year. Michigan left such an impression on her that we are attending an open house this Saturday at Kettering University for future potential Freshman. She would like to consider this Michigan University.

She would not have been exposed to Kettering University if it had not been for our First experience in Michigan. Keeping out of state teams from competing in Michigan regionals will unfortunately limit the exposure to other potential college students.

[maltz1881]

Originally Posted by vince2171

Our team from Indiana, Team 2171, will miss coming to Michigan for the Regional next year. We loved competing at the West Michigan Regional and were fortunate enough to win it with Team 71 from Hammond Indiana and Team 2604 from Capac Michigan. We loved competing against the Michigan teams and really liked the University it was held at. We won a hard fought Championship Round against the Bees, the Semifinals against the More Martians who beat us in a match, and remembered the Foley Freeze as a great team.

When our team was picking an alliance at IRI, my daughter ended up choosing the Killer Bees, Foley Freeze, and More Martians as alliance partners.

My daughter is going to be a Senior this year. Michigan left such an impression on her that we are attending an open house this Saturday at Kettering University for future potential Freshman. She would like to consider this Michigan University.

She would not have been exposed to Kettering University if it had not been for our First experience in Michigan. Keeping out of state teams from competing in Michigan regionals will unfortunately limit the exposure to other potential college students.

You have a smart daughter! My son attends Kettering and the atomosphere their is incredible for the kids. One of the biggest selling points is they have a dorm room to themselves or if they like they can open the doors between rooms for a suite.

Check out the Fuel Cell Development Program, The Wind Tunnel and The Crash Test Lab. It is a small but amazing school.

Have fun!!!

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Greg Marra

It seems people are getting in a huff because their FIRST experience is going to get "watered down" being in a high school gymnasium instead of a hockey arena.

Greg, you're right. High school gymnasiums is where FIRST started its competition structure. We didn't start out 'bright and shiny', but look where we are now. Maybe this step in a different direction is exactly what's needed to scale FRC the right way.

As my mom's always told me, 'you can't knock it 'til you try it.'
I'm going to see how this season goes before I start forming my opinon.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Steve W

People are going on about the cost of the events. A lot of these costs are dictated by FIRST. We must use certain suppliers and meet certain requirements. I have suggested using other A/V companies to save money but we were told no. In other words, these events will not be the same as "official FRC" qualifying events. There are a lot of ways to save money but hands are tied. I have no issue with trying something new but why not let the regional events try and lower their costs. That said this has nothing to do with registration.

If Michigan teams get their first registration for $5,000.00 then the rest of FIRST should have the same benefit of lower costs. Everyone is talking about the high cost of events yet we will be subsidizing Michigan teams for their first event. Again the down side for Michigan teams is the increase for teams that want to go to Championships. They now have to pay extra to go to the State Championship, increasing their cost to $9,000.00 from the previous $6,000.00 but there is a greater chance of getting a "ticket" to allow them to pay for their Championship experience.

If there are all of these sponsors willing to donate to these extra events, what is stopping Michigan from having 1 or 2 more "Official Qualifying" regional events? There is no doubt in my mind that politics is playing a big part in this as you would think that VEX/FTC would have made a large impact in Michigan yet were barred.

Good luck Michigan, I hope for the best. I pray that this is not the beginning of the end to a great program in such a great State as Michigan.

I wonder if the cost structure will backfire now that they must pay to attend a State championship AND the world Championship? Will schools allow their students to miss so much school? Can mentors and volunteers do that much more competitions just to get to Championship?
Since teams can pay their way to championship, wouldn't the ones that wanted to go in the past, just do so anyway?

[Kyle Love]

Well, to me this is a sad thing to see. No more MI regional open to IN teams. This pretty much leaves WI, MN, CHI, and Cleveland relatively close, and St. Louis not too far. IMHO the GLR was the best regional this past year in the midwest and its sad to see it not be open to all again.

Just my $0.02

[Jim Zondag]

To comment on finances:

Many of the details of the financing of this project are not open for public discussion but I can tell you this:

A: The rest of FRC is NOT subsidising Michigan. The money we have from our sponsors and our teams will easily fund all of the Michigan Events in 2009.

B: Our events will be professional and plenty of resources are guaranteed to ensure this. The only major change is that Michigan now has the ability to do our own sourcing for venues and production support instead of having FIRST do all this.

C: Why would depending upon donations for venues and support make FRC less sustainable? Today, we must recruit major sponsors to pay for the high cost venues we are renting. This amounts to the same thing, i.e. someone needs to give us something. Now we are just asking for less cash per event. This is much MORE sustainable.

D: Most of the comments on this thread and CD in general come from generally successful teams. You represent a strong vocal minority. Many people love to travel and meet teams from other areas, etc. This is great, However, the fact remains that MOST teams only can afford a single FRC event per season, and MOST teams never leave their home region. This change will have a major impact on such teams and they are the majority. In the future, travel will still be possible, but choices will be limited. Today, FIRST already limits your choices when they schedule the events (If Denver and Phoenix are the same weekend, you can't do both!). 10 years ago, we used to get teams from the East and West coasts coming to Michigan. This almost never happens anymore. Why not? Cause it's cheaper to stay home and now there are more events closer to everyone's home. Essentially, creating more events means teams will less travel.

[RoboMom]

I will be interested in the lessons learned from the Michigan structure re: volunteers for events. I’ve helped with events in Maryland the past 5 years (FRC/FLL/Vex/the off-season) and have been fortunate to work with !hundreds! of event volunteers. The recruitment, placement, training, and recognition are a lot of work, and I am always looking for ways to make this better for all.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Jim Zondag

To comment on finances:

Many of the details of the financing of this project are not open for public discussion but I can tell you this:

A: The rest of FRC is NOT subsidising Michigan. The money we have from our sponsors and our teams will easily fund all of the Michigan Events in 2009.

Is it true, then, that team fees from Michigan teams in 2009 will go directly toward paying for Michigan events? If true, does that diverge from what I understand is the "norm" (and correct me if I am wrong) - that FRC team event fees do not directly support regionals, that instead they are used to pay for FIRST HQ "overhead"?

And if it is true that next year, Michigan team fees will be diverted toward the funding of Michigan team events, and given that there are well over a hundred Michigan FRC teams, would that not reduce by quite a bit the amount of money flowing to FIRST from Michigan to fund FIRST's "overhead"?

If all that I have asked to this point is true, then the last question I have is, will other FRC teams be asked/required to make up the difference via increased event fees, or will FIRST absorb this loss of "overhead" income such that other FRC teams aren't affected financially?

Just the facts, man. I'm just looking for the facts. If any or all of what I ask above is not the case, I gladly ask that someone who has definitive knowledge of the reality of this new system please communicate it to those of us who are not yet enlightened.

[Jim Zondag]

Repeat:

"Michigan is not being funded by the rest of the FIRST communitee."

Cash from Registration Fees will still go back to New Hampshire.
Fee structure for the State Championship is just like any other regional.

All that's really been done is figure out a way to turn 2 events into 7 for the same price.

[Ken Patton]

Originally Posted by Jim Zondag

Repeat: "Michigan is not being funded by the rest of the FIRST communitee."

Cash from Registration Fees will still go back to New Hampshire.
Fee structure for the State Championship is just like any other regional.

All that's really been done is figure out a way to turn 2 events into 7 for the same price.

Jim, I think what follows might be the math that people might be looking at, and why we might think that FIRST is going to get less revenue from Michigan teams. Maybe there is something I am missing, if so please feel free to correct it:

Scenario A (a "national" team):
2008: 2 Regionals plus Championship
2009: 2 districts plus State plus Championship

2008 Team Cost: 6000 + 4000 + 5000 = 15000
2009 Team Cost: 4000+1000 + 4000 + 5000 = 14000 (team saves $1k)

2008 $ to FIRST: 6000 + 4000 + 5000 = 15000
2009 $ to FIRST: 4000 + 4000 + 5000 = 13000 (FIRST loses $2k)

2008 $ to Michigan: 0
2008 $ to Michigan: 1000 (Michigan gains $1k)


Scenario B (a "state" team):
2008: 2 Regionals
2009: 2 districts plus State

2008 Team Cost: 6000 + 4000 = 10000
2009 Team Cost: 4000+1000 + 4000 = 9000 (team saves $1k)

2008 $ to FIRST: 6000 + 4000 = 10000
2009 $ to FIRST: 4000 + 4000 = 8000 (FIRST loses $2k)

2008 $ to Michigan: 0
2008 $ to Michigan: 1000 (Michigan gains $1k)


Scenario C (a "local" team):
2008: 1 Regional
2009: 2 districts

2008 Team Cost: 6000
2009 Team Cost: 4000+1000 = 5000 (team saves $1k)

2008 $ to FIRST: 6000
2009 $ to FIRST: 4000 (FIRST loses $2k)

2008 $ to Michigan: 0
2008 $ to Michigan: 1000 (Michigan gains $1k)

[nikeairmancurry]

Originally Posted by Ken Patton

Jim, I think what follows might be the math that people might be looking at, and why we might think that FIRST is going to get less revenue from Michigan teams. Maybe there is something I am missing, if so please feel free to correct it:

Scenario A (a "national" team):
2008: 2 Regionals plus Championship
2009: 2 districts plus State plus Championship

2008 Team Cost: 6000 + 4000 + 5000 = 15000
2009 Team Cost: 4000+1000 + 4000 + 5000 = 14000 (team saves $1k)

2008 $ to FIRST: 6000 + 4000 + 5000 = 15000
2009 $ to FIRST: 4000 + 4000 + 5000 = 13000 (FIRST loses $2k)

2008 $ to Michigan: 0
2008 $ to Michigan: 1000 (Michigan gains $1k)


Scenario B (a "state" team):
2008: 2 Regionals
2009: 2 districts plus State

2008 Team Cost: 6000 + 4000 = 10000
2009 Team Cost: 4000+1000 + 4000 = 9000 (team saves $1k)

2008 $ to FIRST: 6000 + 4000 = 10000
2009 $ to FIRST: 4000 + 4000 = 8000 (FIRST loses $2k)

2008 $ to Michigan: 0
2008 $ to Michigan: 1000 (Michigan gains $1k)


Scenario C (a "local" team):
2008: 1 Regional
2009: 2 districts

2008 Team Cost: 6000
2009 Team Cost: 4000+1000 = 5000 (team saves $1k)

2008 $ to FIRST: 6000
2009 $ to FIRST: 4000 (FIRST loses $2k)

2008 $ to Michigan: 0
2008 $ to Michigan: 1000 (Michigan gains $1k)

Ken when you did these was KOP taking into consideration for 2008 money? I only say this because it is money you pay to first.

[Ken Patton]

Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry

Ken when you did these was KOP taking into consideration for 2008 money? I only say this because it is money you pay to first.

Yes, this is simply taking the numbers that were quoted in the Michigan tournament proposal and calculating what some example teams would pay. It includes the payment for KOP for both '08 and '09.

Ken