Barriers to Entry: Why schools DON'T join FIRST

[IKE]

Talking with the technology teacher in my hometown it was cost. He has a supermileage team that runs on a budget of $1500 a year. While they feel that the program would be an awesome experience, they feel they can't justify the expense.

[R2D2DOC]

How about the attempt by Michigan FIRST to address alot of these issues. As mentioned in this thread, FIRST is handling a lot of the large scale issues and schools are in the lower levels of details. The Michigan FIRST program should help to fill the gap.

Any thoughts?

[dragoonex]

Even as a team that has participted in FIRST for 3 years now we still have major difficulty entering the competition each year. The problems really fall into two categories: Money and Faculty.

Money has always been an issue for us. In terms of school funding, we get next to nothing. Our school board won't sponsor us, and our school is only willing to give us $50. So we always have to find a lot of sponsors each year. Luckily this year we found a great sponsor/mentor who helped us greatly.

Faculty is also starting to become an issue. Our team only has one teacher sponsor and it is not reasonable for us to ask him to supervise us every meeting. He's a very busy person. We found another teacher sponsor to help us this year and that has helped, but faculty is still a big issue. Our mentor offered his shop to us, but that brought up another problem and that's transportation. Most of our meetings are held after school and bringing 20 or so students to his shop is difficult, especially in Canadian winters.

School rules are also a problem, but luckily our principle is fully behind the robotics program and even found us a very generous sponsor.

However, I think for most teams, these are the common barriers to entry.

[wendymom]

Brevard County in Florida has an awesome superintendent who is really pushing the program and its wonderful. However in Orange County next door they barely know we exist and have enough problems with finances as it is so that expecting a school to come up with 10K while having to trim 7% out of every school budget just wont happen.

The good news is that you don't have to have a school in order to have a team. We are a 4-H team and as such we don't have to jump through hoops. It is a huge commitment from parents and other professional mentors but there are many of us so the risk and responsibilities are spread out. We have to raise all of our own money but so do lots of school teams.

I think the money and time commitment are what keep schools from joining. Our parents run the team so as long as their are kids who want to be in FIRST, we will have a team.

[gorrilla]

one of our mentors lee johnson got the superintendent of Brevard county interested in lego leauge for all the middle schools and elementary schools in the county


with 1557 being the only team in our entire county its hard to get things going because we are the only ones, we do a presentation at the local streetfest and arent really having that much success but we did recieve a very generous donation from two former mentors of 1902 who recently moved to eustis!

[lasereyes]

I've been trying to get a school to join the FRC. Their main problems are the fact that they cannot get the start-up investment or mentors to help them.

Another big factor for a rookie team is that many people on that team may not be sure if building a robot of that magnitude is possible in 6 weeks (I used to be one of those people...).

[EOC]

It's all about the cost; every time I try to recruit an area high school the reception is very positive until I explain the money envolved; at that point they lose interest and state the cost is prohibitive.
Less cost = more teams!

[gblake]

... every time I try to recruit an area high school the reception is very positive until I explain the money envolved; at that point they lose interest and state the cost is prohibitive. ...

Well then - Don't affiliate with a school!

Teams need one or more students and one or more adult mentors. School affiliation is not required. Just ask MOE or all the other teams that are not a part of a single school or school system.

I feel that far too many of the posts in this thread assume that affiliation with a school, and that school's faculty and facilities, is the one and only way an FRC team starts or survives. Well, an affiliation of that sort simply is not necessary (It usually helps, but it certainly isn't necessary; and lack of one should not be a show-stopper).

If a lack of school support, faculty support, or school facilities has been stopping you or your team from moving forward - I suggest taking a step back and re-assessing your situation - Maybe that particular type of support isn't really necessary after all, and the path forward is more clear than you realized....

Blake

[hallk]

Cost and facility needs can be a challenge but I think the biggest struggle is TIME. It takes a lot of time and effort for a new team to start. Money and mentors can always be found but there is no way to get more time. Some are intimated by what they see and don't think that they can ever do it. Some don't realize what a commitment this program requires and never really get off the ground.
Solution to most FIRST related problems? 26 hour days.

[Pat Arnold]

Originally Posted by gblake

Well then - Don't affiliate with a school!

Teams need one or more students and one or more adult mentors. School affiliation is not required. Just ask MOE or all the other teams that are not a part of a single school or school system.

I feel that far too many of the posts in this thread assume that affiliation with a school, and that school's faculty and facilities, is the one and only way an FRC team starts or survives. Well, an affiliation of that sort simply is not necessary (It usually helps, but it certainly isn't necessary; and lack of one should not be a show-stopper).

If a lack of school support, faculty support, or school facilities has been stopping you or your team from moving forward - I suggest taking a step back and re-assessing your situation - Maybe that particular type of support isn't really necessary after all, and the path forward is more clear than you realized....

Blake

Affiliation with a school is certainly not required. I have great respect for teams who are able to function well without one; my only experience has been with Jupiter High School's MARS team. Although MARS Team 1523 recently considered leaving its school-based roots (to become a 4H group or to incorporate as a 501c3, etc.), many factors made the team work hard to remain affiliated with a high school.

Reasons included:

• Difficulty finding a business sponsor willing to provide work space & particularly tool/machine access due to insurance/liability issues.
• Some sponsors reporting that their financial support was contingent on affiliation with a school group.
• The perceived effort & knowledge deemed necessary to become a 501c3 (we use the school's tax ID #).
• The team's rapid growth due to inclusion in the school's yearly new student orientation, yearbook exposure, classroom announcements, School Advisory Council agenda, etc.

Sure there are many barriers working within the bureaucracy of a school, but there are also some great resources when the partnership works. My opinion is that parental involvement & support are hugely valuable when promoting FIRST with School Boards, principals, & teachers.

[A. Snodgrass]

Another barrier that I haven't noticed mentioned is for the teams coming from either a) different countries or b) whom are not part of the 48 continental states, transportation costs can bring the amount of money required for investment up much higher then it otherwise would be.

This has changed in the last couple of years in Hawai'i, not so much for Alaska as of yet.

However, distance from a regional competition has to be stated as a potential barrier to growth and development of the FIRST Robotics program for groups from certain areas. When there is no regional within a day to two days driving distance, the amount of money to make it to the regional certainly expands.

On not affiliating with a school, I've seen a couple of teams on the west coast effectively form teams unassociated with a school through groups like Girl Scouts. This is a solution that, as has been pointed out earlier, enables the group involved to get past school rivalries, and it can assist in the development of a team within an area that could not potentially support having a FIRST Robotics team at every high school. A side benefit to associating yourself with a group like this can be that there are potentially discounted places you could stay near the regional, or group rates that they can take for plane tickets if the regional is far away.

Another barrier that I would point out can be the perspective of FIRST for companies within the community, and occasionally within the FIRST community itself. Yes, FIRST exposes high school students to engineering, math and science fields, with the added benefit of encouraging those same students to go into engineering, math and science in college. However, there are additional benefits that come out of this competition. These benefits are things like teambuilding, time management and organization skills, critical thinking, creative thinking, goal setting, and enthusiasm for a final product. These are skills that can be useful in many different fields, not JUST engineering.

I hope that this provides some food for thought.

[Jim E]

Religion - You won't see many Amish FIRST teams.

This is just wrong. Having lived with Amish neighbors for half of my life, there is nothing in their religion that prohibits working with robotics.

#1 Batteries are allowed. Some power source is required for their buggy lights. ( and secret cell phones, tvs, freezers,etc)

#2 Pnuematic tires are not allowed. Not a problem here either.

#3 Electricity cannot be provided by the grid. There is no prohibition against providing it with a generator powered by kerosene or solar/wind power.

The only reason you will not see many Amish teams is because most of the Amish drop out after age 16 and are privately schooled. They are fully capable to participate and most have a mechanical knack to pull off winning teams.

To all CD posters and readers, please refrain from your comments on the basis of religious beliefs, color, creed, etc. You are only highlighting your own arrogance and prejudices.

Amish men and women are not required to accept thier faith until age 18 if memory serves me correct. Don't write off a viable group before it's time. They are no different than anybody else.Thier blood still runs red. Only thier beliefs may seem off from the main stream.

[NEMentor470]

Originally Posted by EOC

It's all about the cost; every time I try to recruit an area high school the reception is very positive until I explain the money envolved; at that point they lose interest and state the cost is prohibitive.
Less cost = more teams!

As I understand it, the original FIRST model was for corporations to initiate teams in cooperation with schools. That's how our team was founded. Things went swimmingly until the corporation in question moved out of our state and ceased funding and providing engineer mentors and our meeting place.

Our school wants the robotics program and has provided a very good meeting room and shop and a teacher mentor for us but they are unable to provide money. Seeking a new corporate sponsor is difficult because as soon as we say we are not a 501(c)(3) charity the business people loose interest.

FIRST wants to add new teams (an admirable goal), but they should also think about giving corporations the option to take over teams that have been abandoned by past corporate sponsors. We have a great set-up, a willing school administration, a teacher, etc. but if we don't get major funding and engineering mentors, our outlook is at best bleak.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by NEMentor470

... as soon as we say we are not a 501(c)(3) charity the business people lose interest.

But FIRST is 501(c)(3). You can set it up for the business to deposit directly to FIRST in your account.

[wendymom]

Originally Posted by NEMentor470

As I understand it, the original FIRST model was for corporations to initiate teams in cooperation with schools. That's how our team was founded. Things went swimmingly until the corporation in question moved out of our state and ceased funding and providing engineer mentors and our meeting place.

Our school wants the robotics program and has provided a very good meeting room and shop and a teacher mentor for us but they are unable to provide money. Seeking a new corporate sponsor is difficult because as soon as we say we are not a 501(c)(3) charity the business people loose interest.

FIRST wants to add new teams (an admirable goal), but they should also think about giving corporations the option to take over teams that have been abandoned by past corporate sponsors. We have a great set-up, a willing school administration, a teacher, etc. but if we don't get major funding and engineering mentors, our outlook is at best bleak.

Most Schools are by nature 501 C 3s. They are tax-exempt. Check with your schools bookeeper, they may have the information you need to submit to corporations. Your other option is to become an after school 4-H or Girl Scout club, both of those have 501 C 3 status as well.