New Speed Controller Announced

[Gdeaver]

One thing teams will have to be aware of is that according to the manual, if there is an over current or temperature condition, the motor controller will shut down. The PWM input will have to go to neutral for the motor controller to go active again. For 2009 we will not have any feed back from the motor controller to know that it is in shut down. Teams will have to decide how to detect and reset the motor controller. For the drive this will probably be the responsibility of the driver. For arms and other uses a controller reset button may be useful. Going forward in 2010 with the CAN control method this condition can be handled in software and the user can be alerted that a shut down occurred. Also with proper monitoring code, the controller could implement strategies to stop the controller from going into hard shut down. First team are used to using total open loop controllers and have only been protected from faults by the circuit breakers. How to deal with intelligent controllers is something teams will have to work on in the future. This year without 2 way communication with the motor controller, the victors may be a better choice for uses other than drive motors.

[EricVanWyk]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

This year without 2 way communication with the motor controller, the victors may be a better choice for uses other than drive motors.

...provided teams are willing to pay ~40$ more and put up with a highly non-linear drive characteristic in favor of footprint and a lack of a latching over-current protection.

IMHO, the only advantage the victor has is size. The cost advantage and the linearity advantage leads me to believe that the Jaguar will see a lot of play this year.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by EricVanWyk

IMHO, the only advantage the victor has is size. The cost advantage and the linearity advantage leads me to believe that the Jaguar will see a lot of play this year.

Any extra motor controllers we buy will be Jaguars. It is a cheaper component and is more future proof for this competition. Seems like a no brainer to me.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by EricVanWyk

IMHO, the only advantage the victor has is size. The cost advantage and the linearity advantage leads me to believe that the Jaguar will see a lot of play this year.

There's only a cost advantage if you're comparing buying new Victors to buying new Jaguars... most teams have plenty of Victors already from prior seasons. Free is a lot cheaper than $75...

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by EricVanWyk

...provided teams are willing to pay ~40$ more and put up with a highly non-linear drive characteristic in favor of footprint and a lack of a latching over-current protection.

IMHO, the only advantage the victor has is size. The cost advantage and the linearity advantage leads me to believe that the Jaguar will see a lot of play this year.

Wait... so your telling me that for this season, a victor's only advantage is size? The fact that a an overcurrent on a jaguar causes it to shutdown until a neutral signal is given scares me. Do you know how hectic it is for a driver in a match? How is he immediately supposed to diagnose an overcurrented controller and stop? The alternative being building some some sort of electronic monitering also doesn't appeal to me. Even if could be entirely done in code, the fact we have to send a nuetral signal upsets me.

With the victors, I've never seen one overcurrent in recent times. Heck, I've never had a 40 amp breaker pop during a match on any team I've been on in recent times.

You just made my team's decision for us. I had even got over my dislike of the new system, I had no unfair bias against it. Even if the jaguar doesn't overcurrent often, we'll be using victors. I feel IFI deserves it (2 robots with 6-10 motor controllers each is a lot of business for IFI, we don't have many spares), as for some reason it became cool for some at FIRST to hate them and make snide remarks whenever possible. I love IFI for what they did, and I hope oneday I'll learn to love NI, Luminary Micro, and the other companies for their new system (that love has to be earned with proven reliability and results, so I'm not bashing the new system).

We were seriously considering using all Jaguars for the "better performance".... but IFI is good people.

[Richard McClellan]

The specifications table states that the Fan On temperature is 42 degrees Celcius and the Fan Off temperature is 38 degrees Celcius

The last Q&A question states:

Jaguar (MDL-BDC) turns the fan on when it is running a motor. By default, Jaguar (MDL-BDC) does not turn the fan on until you start to drive. Jaguar (MDL-BDC) will turn the fan off when the module is not driving
a motor and the internal temperature is safe.

So my question is, does the fan come on when you start running a motor, or when the temperature hits 42 degrees, or both?

[s1900ahon]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

The fact that a an overcurrent on a jaguar causes it to shutdown until a neutral signal is given scares me.

I've checked on this and the Jaguar does not require a neutral signal following a fault (anymore). The original prototype firmware of Jaguar did, but it was fixed a long time ago. The documentation is incorrect and will be changed shortly.

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

With the victors, I've never seen one overcurrent in recent times. Heck, I've never had a 40 amp breaker pop during a match on any team I've been on in recent times.

Not surprising. A presentation at the 2008 FIRST Robotics Conference by Al Skierkiewicz says the breakers can function for a few seconds with up to 600% over current and almost 10 seconds up to 200% over current. See http://first.wpi.edu/Images/CMS/Firs...ierkiewicz.ppt

In testing at Luminary Micro, we drove a 150 lb robot rather mercilessly and didn't experience an over current fault. The only time an over current fault was generated was when the wheel of the robot was locked.

[s1900ahon]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

One thing teams will have to be aware of is that according to the manual, if there is an over current or temperature condition, the motor controller will shut down. The PWM input will have to go to neutral for the motor controller to go active again.

I'll have to check on whether this is still true. It was the case for the firmware for the Rev0 versions, but after discussions with FIRST I thought the decision was made to change this so that it would start back up again after the fault period. I will check on this and update the documentation if in error.

Thanks for pointing this out.

UPDATE: Not true anymore. The manual is out of date and is being updated. The PWM input does not have to return to neutral before the motor controller goes active again. This was the behaviour of the original prototype, but was soon changed.

[s1900ahon]

Originally Posted by Richard McClellan

According to the Getting Started guide, it is recommended to have 1/2" of empty space on the left and right side of each Jaguar speed controller. If you were to mount two Jaguars with their sides adjacent to each other, can this 1/2" space overlap, or would you need a total of 1" of space in between the two?

Yes, the 1/2" space can overlap.

[utlinebacker]

Originally Posted by samir13k

can anyone email me a inventor file of the new jaguar?

samir13k@hotmail.com

I cant seem to find any inventor models of the new parts. I am currently working on a model of the cRio, but it will probably take me up to 2 more days.

I forgot to mention: I went ahead and uploaded the Jaguar's IGES file on the Jaguar microsite at http://www.luminarymicro.com/jaguar.

Regards,
Scott

[Qbranch]

Originally Posted by utlinebacker

I forgot to mention: I went ahead and uploaded the Jaguar's IGES file on the Jaguar microsite at http://www.luminarymicro.com/jaguar.

Regards,
Scott

Scott/utLB,

Thanks for your efforts in helping out FIRST kids worldwide!

I have a question about your company. Do you guys manufacture/fab your own parts or do you guys do the design and somebody else does the fab?

I'm a hardcore microchip lover so I don't think I'll ever stop (in the forseeable future) using them, but for high performance motion control applications, your products are very interesting... especially the ability to get parts that are both communications powerful and still incorporate a good assortment of motion control components.

I don't want to get this thread too off topic, so I'll make my last question short... do your parts come in a QFN or other itty bitty surface mount package?

Thanks,

q

[EricVanWyk]

Originally Posted by Qbranch

I'm a hardcore microchip lover so I don't think I'll ever stop (in the forseeable future) using them, but for high performance motion control applications, your products are very interesting... especially the ability to get parts that are both communications powerful and still incorporate a good assortment of motion control components.

Q - I was a hardcore microchip fan, as I used them nearly exclusively through college. After playing with a few Luminaries, I am converted. My microcontroller heart is split between Luminary and Cypress.

Originally Posted by Qbranch

I don't want to get this thread too off topic, so I'll make my last question short... do your parts come in a QFN or other itty bitty surface mount package?

http://www.luminarymicro.com/product...tor_guide.html
They list SOIC-28 LQFP-48/64/100 BGA-108. LQFP is about as small as I can solder by hand.

[Qbranch]

Thanks Eric.

Still not sure I'll be an instant convert or whatever, but I am interested in playing with some of these micros.

-q

[Tom Line]

Will this discount be season-long or will it end soon? Important to know for teams who want to purchase some!

[utlinebacker]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

Will this discount be season-long or will it end soon? Important to know for teams who want to purchase some!

Great question: The FRC discount is not a promotion, but rather a season-long way for us to contribute to your success as an FRC teammate or mentor.

The FRC discount is planned to last (at least) throughout the FRC2009 competition season - so don't panic.

Regards,
Scott