New FIRST competition structure in Michigan

[NEMentor470]

Originally Posted by dlavery

What do you think?

-dave
.

First, I think that the announcement should have been made much earlier, like last year, or the changes should be put off until 2010. Plans have been made. Grants have been written. We are going to have to scramble to accommodate the changes.

Second, although FIRST is knocking $1,000 off of the registration fees, this could end up costing our team a bit more than the traditional system. Our team is struggling financially. We will not be able to pay the fee to attend the State Championship which will be in our own back yard, but we will (apparently) have to travel to two other cities for district competitions.

• No one on our team owns a vehicle that can carry a crated robot, so we are going to incur expense to either ship it or rent something to carry it or pay someone to drive it.
• We will have to pay for a school bus to transport the team to and from events or parents will have to drive. (our school system does not give us free use of buses) The bus ride to Kettering Kick-off in 2007 cost us over $400 for one day.
• We definitely can't afford to stay overnight in whatever city it is, so we will have to drive back at night and return in the morning.

Two weekends of this will more than eat up the $1000 break in the entry fee.

I think the idea of smaller localized competitions has merit, but needs more work.

The idea of a team in every school is great too, if there are resources: There are now three FRC teams in Ypsilanti. I can't speak for the other two, but my team (on the eve of it's 10th season) is in totally desperate need of mentors and money. We have not had a major corporate sponsor since 2004 (not for lack of trying) and are only surviving by our own fundraising efforts and the kindness of ITT Tech and more recently Hyundai America, and mentoring by talented parents of former members. As others have said, it would be good if FIRST could help to strengthen the teams that exist.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by NEMentor470

Our team is struggling financially.

Although I do agree with your statements about how this system may hurt some teams, and not to be rude, but have you actually asked the other teams in your area for help is attaining sponsors? I know for a fact that The Flyers (66) are in your area and that they are one of the kindest teams around. Give them a call if you haven't already and just ask. Take a stretch and even give a call to some other Michigan teams. They will help.


Take a look at all these teams...just hit ctrl F and search "MI"

http://usfirst.org/whatsgoingon.aspx

And please, let us know if you need help. Its what we're all here for. Do not take that quality of FIRST for granted.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

I am really quite saddened that my entire argument about the economics and financial feasibility of getting FRC into every high school has been essentially reduced deteriorated into practically a personal "you-are-with-us-or-you-are-against-us" attack of my supposed "elitism".

I'd like to say, I entirely agree with you, and thank you for posting your thoughts so eloquently (as you certainly can state it better than I can).

As much as it'd be nice to have a FRC team in every highschool, I don't see it ever happening. According to google (I'm getting several different figures) there are 15,000-20,000 High Schools in America. I'd love to see the day where we have that many FIRST teams in the us alone, along with the district/state/world champion structure. But I just can't imagine the economy supporting that many teams.

[Jim Zondag]

Growth and sustainablity is all about controlling costs and increasing ROI. If you had asked someone back in 1992 if FIRST could expand into a league of 1600 teams by 2009, Most people would have said this would be impossible. However one person, Dean Kamen, would have insisted that it could be done. Through his vision, FIRST now has a foothold in about 10% of our schools. This is quite an achievement and we can do more. If you want to give up on this vision, fine, but many of us believe that it can be done. This pilot is simply a logic next step in the process.

Ken, All I can say on the numbers is "We're not going to discuss the details of the finances on ChiefDelphi." This deal was worked out over several months of negotiation between the Board of Directors of FIRST and the new Board of Directors of FIRSTinMichigan. Everyone involved is satisfied with the final deal. No one will be penalized by this initiative and no money from elsewhere will be used to fund any of the Michigan events or teams.

[NEMentor470]

Originally Posted by lilstogi11

Take a stretch and even give a call to some other Michigan teams. They will help.

We have good relationships with several other Michigan teams including The Flyers. We host many of the teams at the Ypsilanti Heritage Festival FIRST Demo every summer. Funding and the need for professional mentors are frequent topics of discussion whenever we are together, and no one from any team has ever given me the impression that they had either mentors or sponsors to spare. Team 470 has "loaned" mentors to another team to help them over a "hump" once, but not on a permanent basis. All the teams help each other as they can.

It would make sense for the Ypsilanti teams to combine transportation to wherever the district competitions are this year. That would reduce the cost to each team, and I'm certainly going to suggest it. Knowing where the district competitions will be and if we have a choice or will be assigned to certain ones would be very helpful. I hope the information is released soon.

[Ken Patton]

Jim-

People will do the rough math - it does not matter what the details of the arrangement are, one can calculate what the range of revenues going to the different groups and get a similar conclusion each time. Its probably not realistic to expect that FRC people wont want to do a little math.

In the end this is an experiment that, regardless of outcome, will hopefully benefit all the teams, not just the Michigan teams. So people who don't agree with where/how the money is going may be willing to tolerate it.

It would have been great to have this discussion over the last several months. However, that did not happen and we are now in the situation where a "done deal" is presented to us. However, as you can read, its not quite "done," there are many details that need to be worked out, and the clock has been ticking. This communication medium and the people who live here are going to be a powerful force in making this successful. Its time to identify the issues, and ask for their ideas, participation, and help.

Ken

P.S. I use the word "live" figuratively - I KNOW people really don't live here, they are just visiting. From home. Where they live. Anyway, we need their ideas.

[Zflash]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

The 18 teams advancing to the Championship reflects the 18 teams that previously advanced from Great Lakes, West Michigan and Detroit Regionals. Granted, two teams from Indiana qualified from West Michigan this year. But teams from Michigan qualified from other regionals, which will be still be possible but less likely in the future.

The only difference here is that the Great Lakes, West Michigan and Detroit regionals were all open for attendance by anyone not just Michigan teams. This is my opinon and not that of my entire team not fair at all. I realize that life is not fair however if my team enters an event we have a 1 in something like 5 chance in advancing to the championships this is far less then the opportunity for Michigan Teams. I also believe that if a Michigan Team pays $5,000 for the kit and two events, then a Non-Michigan team should pay $no more than $5,000 for the kit and one event, possibly less. I am still forming my opinion on this whole matter. However I do congratulate the Michigan teams for pulling off such a great accomplishment and truly changing the face of FIRST as we know it.

[Mary]

As a past but not current mentor, I find this pilot very unfair. To everyone, teams in and out of Michigan.

No one can really debate that Michigan teams will have an incredible competitive advantage anytime they play at events outside of Michigan against the other 95% of all FIRST teams. If I am reading this thread right (lots of information, forigve me if I am off here), then
1. Michigan teams will be able to play 2 or 3 different weekends/events for $4 or $5 thousand dollars less than all other teams
2. Michigan teams will have more time to work on their robots because they will not have to ship them (at least on my old team, we could not really work on the ship day as we had to get everything crated and ready for Fedex to show up at any time).
3. Michigan teams get to keep their robots between events, on an honor system

I do not get # 3 - why is this needed for the pilot? There seem to be events on back to back weekends all over the country? If Michigan teams can pilot a keep your robot \\\\\\\"honor\\\\\\\" system, then why cant all teams. Are the rest of the teams not trustworthy enough?

# 1 bothers me the most. Why do Michigan teams need to get any discount? The gives them an extra $5,000 to enter another event, to build a practice robot, to buy a second control system, and so on - how does this lead to anything even close to an even playing field if they get to play against teams at other events and the championship who do not get those advantages?

Hasn\'t it been pointed out that registration fees don\'t even go to pay for the cost of local events? If so, then 95% of the teams are paying more this year to subsidize a discount for kits and events for 5% of the teams. How is this a good or fair thing?

Last, as I said, this is unfair to all teams, including Michigan teams. They are not asking for this advantage or different playing field, but they will not get full credit for anything they accomplish outside of Michigan because everyone will wonder if they would have done as well without the huge advantages. I do not get this at all - arent there lots of off season events around the country that do this sort of pilot every year? Why not do it in other states - why should only Michigan teams get to save THOUSANDS of dollars, not have to ship robots and get a competitive advantage? I know how hard all teams, students and mentors work to get to fundraise and get to events and I do not get why FIRST would put such an unfair and unbalanced pilot into the regular season. Either test it for everyone or do it in the off season.

[EricH]

Mary, everything you bring up has been gone over already.

I agree on the discount. However, it is only a $1000 discount from last year, and we don't know that all teams don't get it. They pay more if they make their state event.

Michigan teams have to put their robots in a bag and have a third party seal it. The bag can then only be unsealed at an event or during a single 8-hour window the week before a particular event.

Please read the thread and the attachments/links. FIRST has thought of most things and weighed risks and benefits by now. If there is an issue that isn't addressed here, in one of the attachments, or in one of the other threads, then it should probably be taken up with FIRST or FIRSTinMichigan.

[Mary]

Then I must have read something wrong - I thought it said they pay $1,000 less and get to play in TWO different events, tournaments, regionals, whatever you want to call them. Based on that, if a Michigan team plays in 2 Michigan discounted events and 1 regional somewhere else in weeks 1, 2 and 4 - then they would only have to pay around $9k. All other teams from Colorado, NY, CA, and so on, if they want to play weeks 1,2 and 4 - then they have to pay $14,000. Or if you just say 2 events in Michigan vs 2 regionals for other teams, it would be $5,000 versus $10,000.

That is why I said it is a huge financial savings to play in multiple events (not one). If I read that wrong and the $1,000 discount only gets them a kit and 1 single event entry, then thank you for correcting me, it is not as big an advantage. But if I read it right, then it is totally unfair for 95% of the teams to have to pay $5,000 more than other teams for a kit and two weekends of play. That is what I was all upset about, hopefully I was wrong.

[Jack Jones]

I also believe that if a Michigan Team pays $5,000 for the kit and two events, then a Non-Michigan team should pay $no more than $5,000 for the kit and one event, possibly less.

# 1 bothers me the most. Why do Michigan teams need to get any discount?

I agree on the discount. However, it is only a $1000 discount from last year, and we don't know that all teams don't get it. They pay more if they make their state event.

What you may not realize is that there is no discount. The registration for Michigan teams is being subsidized by FIRST in Michigan, with the help of their participating sponsors, venues, and volunteers. No, they are not making up the difference in cash for the registration fees, but rather they are assuming ALMOST ALL of costs and ALL the responsibilities that FIRST national would normally have to run the events. FIRST can thus afford to reduce the initial registration fee without it costing the rest of the nation/world one red cent. In fact, the rest of the teams will benefit because it frees up the FIRST national personnel and resources to grow and sustain the program in their areas.

Consider that Michigan events have never been propped up; we have always turned a profit; we have never relied on NASA grants to pay out of state teams to come here and fill our events; we’ve never had NASA grants go toward enabling our rookies to play here. But you’ve probably never heard us complain about our entry fees subsidizing new regionals in places where there weren’t enough teams to fill their events, and/or were way beyond practical places for most teams to go. We’ve been willing to sacrifice until now.

But now that they’ve had their beginning, it’s time for us to have our new begining. I don’t have the numbers for ’08, but in ’07 we fielded 105 teams. Of those 105 teams, 35 attended only one event. As you may have read here, their season ended just about the time they got up to speed. That is no longer acceptable!

There are many involved with FiM, and apparently many of you, who see the new structure leading to our sending the cream of the crop from our State Championship to The Championship in Atlanta. I warn them and you not to expect to see many new faces from Michigan in Atlanta. We send the cream of the crop every year as it is, as evidenced by our disproportionate share of Champions. In ’07 we sent 43 teams, which is way more than the 18 that will qualify this year, and way more, I expect, even when you add in the ones who qualify out of state. So, once again many will get there the old fashioned way. They will buy their way in. The same goes for our State Championship. It will need to draw about ½ of our teams, with 1/3 unable to afford more than the initial registration and maybe 1/6 deciding to go to Atlanta instead. IMO, the Cumulative Point System for Ranking and Advancement you see in the PDF has little meaning, all but a few (if not all) of the ones with the cash will get in.

This competition structure is not the beginning of the end that many are making it out to be. Not much will change. The out of state teams will still have all the places they can afford to play. Our UP teams will still have a drive ahead of them. We still won’t have the luster and professionalism they apparently enjoy elsewhere. Our rich and powerful will still dominate. What really matters for many of us is that dozens of our teams will finally be getting an ample return on the investment they put into the program. We wish the same for the entire community, and expect that our pilot will show them a way to make that happen.

But it will not happen for you, unless you make it happen, which won’t be by trying to rain on our parade. Ask not what FIRST in Michigan is getting that you are not; ask instead what you can do to earn the same for yourselves.

[SusanMeyer]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

Consider that Michigan events have never been propped up; we have always turned a profit; we have never relied on NASA grants to pay out of state teams to come here and fill our events; we’ve never had NASA grants go toward enabling our rookies to play here. But you’ve probably never heard us complain about our entry fees subsidizing new regionals in places where there weren’t enough teams to fill their events, and/or were way beyond practical places for most teams to go. We’ve been willing to sacrifice until now.
Of those 105 teams, 35 attended only one event. As you may have read here, their season ended just about the time they got up to speed. That is no longer acceptable!
Our rich and powerful will still dominate. What really matters for many of us is that dozens of our teams will finally be getting an ample return on the investment they put into the program. We wish the same for the entire community, and expect that our pilot will show them a way to make that happen.

But it will not happen for you, unless you make it happen, which won’t be by trying to rain on our parade. Ask not what FIRST in Michigan is getting that you are not; ask instead what you can do to earn the same for yourselves.

Jack, I've never posted here before, but you really pushed a button, so here goes.

Are you kidding? I didn't have a strong opinion on this either way, but now I do, it's unfair and wrong. Let me get this straight, according to you:

You have a problem with areas helped sponsorship and team grants from NASA, but not areas getting help from GM, Delphi and Board Members? Regions with help from NASA, BAE, Raytheon and others have it made, they don't deserve discounts or support? But somehow your state with years of support from big sponsors has it tougher and deserves special attention?

According to you Michigan teams deserve to finally get ample return for the high prices they pay in FIRST, but before the rest of the the teams around the country get a better return? Michigan teams already have the cream of the crop and dominate in FIRST, as you say, but at the same time you say Michigan teams need a better return on their $ than all other teams?

You say don't rain on your parade? What gives you and Michigan teams the right to have a parade that the rest of the community paying MORE to participate doesn't get to have? Seems it's all the teams OUTSIDE of Michigan that deserve a better return on their investment. You think 1/3 of your teams only getting to play once is unacceptable? How do you think that's any different for hundreds of teams around the country in other states? Why is it unacceptable for your teams but not everyone else?

My daughter does FLL here in St.Louis and my nephew is on an FRC team. The reason I think so highly of FIRST is because of our local volunteers and supporters, and all they do. They show us all that it's truly a community. But you say we shouldn't worry about one state getting a better deal than everyone else, that we should just do what you do, splinter off and only worry about our own? I hope most states don't feel the message of FIRST is to worry about themselves first and the good of community later. I hope most states want to find a solution for everyone at the same time instead of a "better return", "more plays" and an advantage for one state first.

I think FIRST is better than that, and I think this pilot is exactly what you have exposed it to be: a quest for one group to get a better return on their investment than all other areas, because according to you it's about time and you deserve it - as you clearly state. If this is to help teams who need a better return, then do this pilot in Alaska or Montana or somewhere that didn't have 3 events already.

I find your post to be hypocritical, arrogant and ignorant about what all teams around the country are facing (yours are no different and don't have it any tougher). Sorry to disagree with you so much, but I don't think you have a healthy respect for what all teams and regions in the country experience, all the hard work they dedicate and the better return on investment that they ALL deserve. Special treatment, huge discounts or experiments like this should be for all teams or no teams, other wise they shouldn't be on the same playing field.

[Steve W]

I have been talking off line with some of the other posters here from Michigan. I will tell those reading that there has been a lot of background work done by Michigan teams. I applaud their efforts and wish them well at this venture BUT I would like to see one change made in the arrangements. I would like to see a provision in place that states that any Michigan team that competes at the State Championship be not eligible to qualify at any out of state regional. The reasoning behind this is that in previous years all teams could compete and qualify at any regional that they paid to attend. Now that there are 3 regionals that other teams are excluded from because of the elite nature of the Michigan trial, that limits the places teams can compete. As there are so many spots available at the Michigan Championship (same as 3 previous regionals last year) BUT no other teams are eligible to earn, I believe that to make things fair then the Michigan teams should not be able to qualify at any of the other regionals. This would only be fair if the Michigan team went to the Michigan Championship. If they skipped that event then they would be treated the same as any other team at any other event.

[GaryVoshol]

People seem to have lost sight of the fact that this is a pilot. Of course you don't launch it everywhere at once. You have to see if it will work.

Mary mentioned that her child is in FLL. Perhaps you don't know that FLL got its start as a pilot program, in Michigan, 11 years ago. And that the FLL World Festival started as a pilot program the last year the championships were held at Disney. Look where it has evolved now.

And yes, the point of it is to get more competitions for less or the same money.

Maybe this will work, maybe it won't. But we won't know unless we try, will we?

[Zflash]

[quote=Jack Jones;760790]What you may not realize is that there is no discount. The registration for Michigan teams is being subsidized by FIRST in Michigan, with the help of their participating sponsors, venues, and volunteers.QUOTE]

Thank you for answering my question, I somewhat expected that answer. With so many teams in one area, people are bound to have an impact on the area to make this happen for them. I congratulate FIRST Michigan on this accomplishment. However I still do not believe that it is right for a team to have a 1 in 18 chance to advance to the World Champinoships at 1 event, when all other teams only have a 1 in roughly 5 chance to advance at each event they go to.