Barriers to Entry: Why schools DON'T join FIRST

[gorrilla]

one of our mentors lee johnson got the superintendent of Brevard county interested in lego leauge for all the middle schools and elementary schools in the county


with 1557 being the only team in our entire county its hard to get things going because we are the only ones, we do a presentation at the local streetfest and arent really having that much success but we did recieve a very generous donation from two former mentors of 1902 who recently moved to eustis!

[lasereyes]

I've been trying to get a school to join the FRC. Their main problems are the fact that they cannot get the start-up investment or mentors to help them.

Another big factor for a rookie team is that many people on that team may not be sure if building a robot of that magnitude is possible in 6 weeks (I used to be one of those people...).

[Dowjonesbotics]

some probably dont have money in their budget or the facilities

[pogenwurst]

artdutra04 hit some great points. There's a lot of talk about expense and lack of mentors, and those are indeed legitimate concerns, but don't underestimate the more "mundane" difficulties faced by teams, like lack of work space.

Our rookie year (2007), team 2007 (funny coincidence, eh?) was lucky enough to be given a spare classroom for a workshop. This past year, though, a county magnet school (somewhat ironically, science-, math-, and technology-oriented) displaced us, and we were relegated to, well, a closet.

Were we crippled? No, we managed, but it was a severe inconvenience.

[Pat Arnold]

A major barrier for all teams, including school-based ones that struggle for teacher involvement, is turnover. 4 years ago Jupiter High was one of three local schools approached by GE employees interested in forming a team, & was the only one to accept when its Engineering Academy teacher, Mr. Z. (a former Team 180 mentor), agreed to be the team's faculty sponsor.

4 years later, Mr. Z. (still the team's only teacher) wanted to move on & reclaim his classroom & storage space for academy use. The team's rookie year students who participated all 4 years graduated in May 2008. JHS's supportive principal retired. Although the team has several strong underclassmen, the loss of experienced students, parent-mentors, the team's one teacher, principal & facility have been a huge hurdle.

MARS has dealt with everything by partnering with a second High School in the area (welcome Dwyer High!), recruiting a Dwyer teacher as faculty sponsor, & relocating to their campus while still being a part of Jupiter High. They've met with JHS' incoming principal gaining her support, & with her help recruited another Jupiter teacher. This summer has been an incredibly busy time & without year-round meetings the team probably would not have been able to continue in 2009.

So...I agree with everything already mentioned: faculty involvement & lack of incentive for teachers, workspace, $, communication, restrictive school rules, etc., and add "turnover " into the problem mix (although as stated this is not unique to school-based teams)

By the way, it was great meeting Team 1557 at Eustis' Street Fest. Part of why MARS has been able to deal with its problems is how hard they've worked on community outreach by participating in similar events. Dwyer High was amazed when Jupiter High's award winning & known team approached their cross-town school rival for help.

[Travis Hoffman]

Here's another Barrier - Regional Economics.

I was reminded of this when I heard on the radio today that 5 different local communities voted down 5 new school levies and 1 renewal levy in yesterday's special election.

That and the Youngstown, OH area was named one of the 10 "fastest-dying cities" by Forbes.com (I think elitist editors revel in making people feel worse by publishing such drivel).

Try starting up new teams in that climate. Fun times.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

Here's another Barrier - Regional Economics.

I was reminded of this when I heard on the radio today that 5 different local communities voted down 5 new school levies and 1 renewal levy in yesterday's special election.

That and the Youngstown, OH area was named one of the 10 "fastest-dying cities" by Forbes.com (I think elitist editors revel in making people feel worse by publishing such drivel).

Try starting up new teams in that climate. Fun times.

And the above is exactly why they need STEM programs like FIRST. Good luck finding someone with vision enough to see beyond todays problems.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

And the above is exactly why they need STEM programs like FIRST. Good luck finding someone with vision enough to see beyond todays problems.

For those who live in such a downtrodden community, there is a distinct difference between dreaming about the ideal future and actually making it happen within the REALITY many here trudge through every day. Change occurs at a much slower pace here against a much greater resistance, to the point where even the mildest of victories that are considered trivial or meaningless in better-off communities are celebrated as major achievements locally by those who attempt to affect change. People who think an entire community will up and reverse decades of entrenched mindset overnight are deluding themselves!

Many of these failed levies are for basic school repairs and operating expenses. Extracurricular programs are being cut and families have to pay to play at many schools. If families are reluctant/unable to vote for those basics due to personal finances or bitterness generated by their employment situations, do you think they are going to get right up and throw money and time at STEM programs?

It was inevitable - some generation had to pay the price during the region's transition from the corporate-subsidized, high wages and benefits with little more than a high school education days to the go out and get a college degree in order to obtain a secure, well paying job (and even that relative security is in question for many degreed people working in this area any more.....).

A few high schools and the local universities (Youngstown State and Kent State) are actively working together to pursue and integrate STEM initiatives into school curriculums. YSU is attempting to rally local industry to the cause as well, to create a pipeline of STEM-based students from school through to college and eventually into the local workforce.

Our local U.S. Representative Tim Ryan is very pro-STEM and understands the need to transition the local economy away from manufacturing toward more high-tech endeavors. He recently worked with several veteran local FRC teams to secure $180,000 in funding to startup new FIRST teams locally. We will have one new FRC team from the area in 2009 funded out of that amount. We're hoping that by bringing this and the NASA grant opportunity to the table, schools will be willing to "take the bait" and start up new programs, get their communities and local businesses interested.....well, you know the rest.

There are also several business incubators in the area attempting to attract high-tech industries to startup/relocate here.

These are all noble efforts that run counter to the notion that the area is "dying". However, it still takes an entire community of people to "buy" what these relative few are "selling". The number of people involved in these STEM initiatives pales in comparison to the size of the disaffected general population here who have lost much due to downsizing and shutdowns. You don't walk up to their door and shout "STEM!!!!!" in their faces and get them to do cartwheels in the streets after they just lost their jobs or had their wages cut in half and pensions slashed. You'd be lucky to walk away without receiving a fist to the gut.

Bottom line - it's going to take some time to break people out of their rut and see the light of change - much moreso than other relatively better-off communities in which these high-tech initiatives are more readily embraced. So yes, regional economics and the voting attitude of the communities toward their school districts definitely play large roles in the rate at which area schools adopt FIRST as a program.

[gorrilla]

it also has to do with the industry in the area in lake county there is not really any big companies besides disney which is already one of our sponsers if theres no industry then people wont feel the need to support something the prepares people to work in the industrial field






by the by Pat if you want to come to one of our meetings we are having on this thursday from 6-8 pm the address is on our website

[EOC]

It's all about the cost; every time I try to recruit an area high school the reception is very positive until I explain the money envolved; at that point they lose interest and state the cost is prohibitive.
Less cost = more teams!

[gblake]

... every time I try to recruit an area high school the reception is very positive until I explain the money envolved; at that point they lose interest and state the cost is prohibitive. ...

Well then - Don't affiliate with a school!

Teams need one or more students and one or more adult mentors. School affiliation is not required. Just ask MOE or all the other teams that are not a part of a single school or school system.

I feel that far too many of the posts in this thread assume that affiliation with a school, and that school's faculty and facilities, is the one and only way an FRC team starts or survives. Well, an affiliation of that sort simply is not necessary (It usually helps, but it certainly isn't necessary; and lack of one should not be a show-stopper).

If a lack of school support, faculty support, or school facilities has been stopping you or your team from moving forward - I suggest taking a step back and re-assessing your situation - Maybe that particular type of support isn't really necessary after all, and the path forward is more clear than you realized....

Blake

[hallk]

Cost and facility needs can be a challenge but I think the biggest struggle is TIME. It takes a lot of time and effort for a new team to start. Money and mentors can always be found but there is no way to get more time. Some are intimated by what they see and don't think that they can ever do it. Some don't realize what a commitment this program requires and never really get off the ground.
Solution to most FIRST related problems? 26 hour days.

[ttldomination]

FIRST is a great program. But the major issue is cost. Even FTC teams are having trouble getting money together. Especially the larger teams. Fundraising is enough, but I doubt one can raise 10,000. It's hard. And we can't all depend on sponsors. Of course companies have to pitch in to the community. But, teams who fail to get enough sponsors simply can't compete.

Another one would be *self committment*. I've seen it a thousand times when a team wants something, and they are simply not willing to work for it. Although if a group of students are "committed" they can get a team started.

Our past few principal's have been really supportive of the program. All of our administrators come to the competition and check out what the team has acheived. It has to do with communit support. A team is less likely to compete if they feel that they have no support. Our team gets major support from the community, and that is a major drive for us.

[Pat Arnold]

Originally Posted by gblake

Well then - Don't affiliate with a school!

Teams need one or more students and one or more adult mentors. School affiliation is not required. Just ask MOE or all the other teams that are not a part of a single school or school system.

I feel that far too many of the posts in this thread assume that affiliation with a school, and that school's faculty and facilities, is the one and only way an FRC team starts or survives. Well, an affiliation of that sort simply is not necessary (It usually helps, but it certainly isn't necessary; and lack of one should not be a show-stopper).

If a lack of school support, faculty support, or school facilities has been stopping you or your team from moving forward - I suggest taking a step back and re-assessing your situation - Maybe that particular type of support isn't really necessary after all, and the path forward is more clear than you realized....

Blake

Affiliation with a school is certainly not required. I have great respect for teams who are able to function well without one; my only experience has been with Jupiter High School's MARS team. Although MARS Team 1523 recently considered leaving its school-based roots (to become a 4H group or to incorporate as a 501c3, etc.), many factors made the team work hard to remain affiliated with a high school.

Reasons included:

• Difficulty finding a business sponsor willing to provide work space & particularly tool/machine access due to insurance/liability issues.
• Some sponsors reporting that their financial support was contingent on affiliation with a school group.
• The perceived effort & knowledge deemed necessary to become a 501c3 (we use the school's tax ID #).
• The team's rapid growth due to inclusion in the school's yearly new student orientation, yearbook exposure, classroom announcements, School Advisory Council agenda, etc.

Sure there are many barriers working within the bureaucracy of a school, but there are also some great resources when the partnership works. My opinion is that parental involvement & support are hugely valuable when promoting FIRST with School Boards, principals, & teachers.

[A. Snodgrass]

Another barrier that I haven't noticed mentioned is for the teams coming from either a) different countries or b) whom are not part of the 48 continental states, transportation costs can bring the amount of money required for investment up much higher then it otherwise would be.

This has changed in the last couple of years in Hawai'i, not so much for Alaska as of yet.

However, distance from a regional competition has to be stated as a potential barrier to growth and development of the FIRST Robotics program for groups from certain areas. When there is no regional within a day to two days driving distance, the amount of money to make it to the regional certainly expands.

On not affiliating with a school, I've seen a couple of teams on the west coast effectively form teams unassociated with a school through groups like Girl Scouts. This is a solution that, as has been pointed out earlier, enables the group involved to get past school rivalries, and it can assist in the development of a team within an area that could not potentially support having a FIRST Robotics team at every high school. A side benefit to associating yourself with a group like this can be that there are potentially discounted places you could stay near the regional, or group rates that they can take for plane tickets if the regional is far away.

Another barrier that I would point out can be the perspective of FIRST for companies within the community, and occasionally within the FIRST community itself. Yes, FIRST exposes high school students to engineering, math and science fields, with the added benefit of encouraging those same students to go into engineering, math and science in college. However, there are additional benefits that come out of this competition. These benefits are things like teambuilding, time management and organization skills, critical thinking, creative thinking, goal setting, and enthusiasm for a final product. These are skills that can be useful in many different fields, not JUST engineering.

I hope that this provides some food for thought.