Nearly Officially Official: cRIO Control System To Be Reused

[Billfred]

I didn't see a thread on the matter, so I figured this was worth starting one.

A quote from Bill Miller, FRC Director, on his blog:

FRC has decided to make parts of the New Control System reusable. That's right. If all goes well, teams will be able to reuse the cRIO, the modules, the bumpers, the digital side car, the power distribution board, the drivers station and a number of other items. We hope to keep costs down and reduce the impact manufacturing, shipping and scrapping these items has on our environment. With more than 1700 teams expected to participate this year, we can make a big difference with this small change in policy.

Interesting questions are raised in the comments of the aforementioned post; only time will tell how they are answered.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Billfred

I didn't see a thread on the matter, so I figured this was worth starting one.

A quote from Bill Miller, FRC Director, on his blog:

Interesting questions are raised in the comments of the aforementioned post; only time will tell how they are answered.

It's good to see that this issue is going to get a little bit of traction. I've been curious about how reusing the control system will affect entry fees since it was announced.

It's also interesting to see how FIRST is trying spin this positively as, unless entry fees are drastically reduced, I don't see how this is good for many, many teams. Sure, we won't have to buy new Victors each year or similar, but that expense was far, far lesser than that of an entirely new control system.

[EricVanWyk]

I came from a "rich" team and then mentored a "poor" team. As a rich team, it was really nice to have all sorts of old robots kicking around. We used them for demos, training, you name it. As a poor team, we really could have better used the money elsewhere.

I hope what this means is that poor teams no longer have to shell out the cash for a system they already have. This could help with the retention problem.

On the other hand, I also hope there is a way for rich teams to buy extras. I'd like it even more if those purchases helped to subsidize the less fortunate teams.

[artdutra04]

So much for keeping old robots operational for demos and presentations about FIRST in the community, teaching new students about different types of manipulators and drive trains on operational old robots, and having a second robot around for driver practice and programming. :-/

So exactly how is only giving teams a single control system good again?

[waialua359]

I have some issues in terms of not being able to receive a new RC and OI the following season.
With all of the hard work and efforts that go into creating a robot, stripping parts off of it for a newer robot seems like a waste of the efforts put into the stripped robot.
Every school has their own uses/non-use of their older robots once the current seasons are over. We certainly use ours for a variety of fundraising/public events and for robot driver training. As pointed out earlier, I hope that if this becomes standard practice, that registration fees would be adjusted accordingly, to give teams an option to obtain a "spare" one for the current season. This would make more sense and gives teams the flexibility to save on cost if they choose to reuse their old control system.
I highly doubt it as we all know that many of the parts are either donated or subsidized by donors. I wonder just how much these a la carte prices will be.
I realize that cost is a major issue for this whole situation, but I think its a step backwards from the progress made by teams who now are able to incorporate prototyping, driver training, and other creative ideas in their program when it comes to having a new control system every year in the kit.

[Cory]

I fail to see any possible way this is a good thing.

Does anyone think we will see reduced entry fees from this? No, we will see the same entry fee as always, and us not receiving a new system every year will allow FIRST to subsidize the vastly increased cost of the cRIO relative to the IFI system. In the end we pay the same as we did for the IFI system, but get less.

So much for all the teams who like to have multiple operational robots (or make practice robots).

Pretty poor attempt at a spin job, if you ask me.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

So much for keeping old robots operational for demos and presentations about FIRST in the community, teaching new students about different types of manipulators and drive trains on operational old robots, and having a second robot around for driver practice and programming. :-/

So exactly how is only giving teams a single control system good again?

Realistically there are many teams who do none of the types of things that you describe. To me it makes the most sense to offer two registration costs for 2010 and beyond. A full $6000 for those teams who want to receive a new controller for the season, and a reduced rate in the $3000-$3500 ballpark for those teams who are fine with re-using their old cRIO and associated parts. This would provide an affordable avenue for those teams who are struggling to make ends meet year after year.

Of course if they're going to charge $6000 and not give teams a control system, we would have a very different story on our hands. I'm not sure how it would be possible to justify keeping costs the same while providing teams with a significantly diminished KOP.

[EricVanWyk]

Originally Posted by Cory

Does anyone think we will see reduced entry fees from this? No, we will see the same entry fee as always, and us not receiving a new system every year will allow FIRST to subsidize the vastly increased cost of the cRIO relative to the IFI system. In the end we pay the same as we did for the IFI system, but get less.

We do not yet know what will happen with the pricing structure. Assuming the worst and passing it as fact is inappropriate and not helpful.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by EricVanWyk

We do not yet know what will happen with the pricing structure. Assuming the worst and passing it as fact is inappropriate and not helpful.

Reread Cory's post, he was not passing off anything as fact.

If all goes well, teams will be able to reuse the cRIO, the modules, the bumpers, the digital side car, the power distribution board, the drivers station and a number of other items.

If all goes well? This is clearly PR BS. How could they even possibly make a system that isn't reusable? And as far as I remember, the IFI system was always "reusable", it'd be almost impossible for it to not be.

The sugarcoating and PR BS really ruin Bill's place for me. At first, I had hopes it would be a place where FIRST might actually communicate to teams without BS, and maybe possibly listen. This is clearly not the case, it's just a new face.

If someone offered me a brand new Porsche at the expense of amputating my legs, I'd decline.

[waialua359]

Cory's hit it on the nail.
The cost of having the new cRIO system is probably a substantial amount more and this would be FIRST's attempt to keep the registration costs to, my guess, about the same. It was clearly made public that the cRIO system would be quite expensive, but the subsidized costs were still to be determined.
As justified as this may be, the harsh reality is that most teams struggle to meet the current costs and now have this additional hurdle to overcome if they want to improve and expand their programs.
With the way our world/US economies are, its not going to help teams this year also.

[Cory]

For anyone who didn't navigate through to the linked page, here are the comments on the page, all of which are very relevant to the discussion at hand. We should all be very interested in FIRST's response to them.

Greg Needel said...

"We hope to keep costs down and reduce the impact manufacturing, shipping and scrapping these items has on our environment."


Does this mean that we are going to see reduced kit costs passed along to the teams in future years? Also what will the price be for extra control systems for teams that wish to buy them to avoid dismantling old robots every year. What will the policy be in regards to fixing control systems that break; similar to the $100 cost to fix the old one from IFI?

September 19, 2008 6:37 AM
William "Billfred" Leverette said...

If I recall my FRC history, it looks like we're gonna party like it's 1999.

Reusing components on this scale conflicts with the mantra a lot of teams share with rookies: never take apart a robot. On my team, we draw the line at modifying old robots' mechanisms to make them better (or, more commonly, work in the first place). I could see it making sense if the other option was to raise entry fees in the present economy, but I still find myself less than enthused by this announcement.

September 19, 2008 9:26 AM
Greg Marra said...

How will teams demonstrate old robots if they have to cannibalize them year to year? Given that the cRio and other components are being heavily subsidized to FIRST teams, how much will purchasing additional parts of the control system cost?

What happens if my cRio breaks in year two? Are all of the new control system components covered by a lifetime warranty?

[SamC]

[We hope to]...reduce the impact manufacturing, shipping and scrapping these items has on our environment.

save the environment one control system at a time!

Can't hurt to try I guess...

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by EricVanWyk

On the other hand, I also hope there is a way for rich teams to buy extras. I'd like it even more if those purchases helped to subsidize the less fortunate teams.

A very noble thought with which I agree. We all want everyone to be able to participate.

Originally Posted by artdutra04

So exactly how is only giving teams a single control system good again?

Perhaps it saves money on entry fees?

Originally Posted by Cory

Does anyone think we will see reduced entry fees from this? No, we will see the same entry fee as always, and us not receiving a new system every year will allow FIRST to subsidize the vastly increased cost of the cRIO relative to the IFI system. In the end we pay the same as we did for the IFI system, but get less.

I disagree, I think a two-tiered cost structure is inevitable. However, neither of us should be speculating, especially highly negative speculation.

Don

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Karthik

... Of course if they're going to charge $6000 and not give teams a control system, we would have a very different story on our hands. I'm not sure how it would be possible to justify keeping costs the same while providing teams with a significantly diminished KOP.

Originally Posted by Cory

... What happens if my cRio breaks in year two? Are all of the new control system components covered by a lifetime warranty?

Perhaps FIRST (and the supplier) intend to cover the cost of warranting control system components for multi-season use in FRC by charging all teams the same entry fees, whether veterans or rookies?

It's moot this year because all teams will be controls system rookies. We all have a season to figure out how this should work.

Since my daughter will have to live with the mess I leave behind on earth, I support re-use of things that can be built to last. The cRio seems to fit that description from what I've seen so far, but much more experience is needed.

[ATannahill]

what i see is that if a team wants to keep it for their old robots it does not hurt the environment, if we threw it on the ground that would be different.