Nearly Officially Official: cRIO Control System To Be Reused

[Nate Smith]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

If all goes well? This is clearly PR BS. How could they even possibly make a system that isn't reusable? And as far as I remember, the IFI system was always "reusable", it'd be almost impossible for it to not be.

Looking at this page, and going somewhat off of my memory, it looks like there were three generations of the IFI controllers, each non-compatible with the previous one. And something that has to be remembered is that FIRST is not designing these controllers in-house, but rather someone(read: NI) is taking existing hardware, and customizing it to some degree for FIRST to use. Because of this, FIRST may have little to no say in some aspects of the design that would warrant a new system in the event of a change to the system's design. After all, not everything can be handled in software...

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

The sugarcoating and PR BS really ruin Bill's place for me. At first, I had hopes it would be a place where FIRST might actually communicate to teams without BS, and maybe possibly listen. This is clearly not the case, it's just a new face.

Ignoring my position for a moment, I would have to disagree with you on this. I think the important thing to keep in mind in this case is who is the "new face" who is communicating this information. Bill is the Program Director for the entire FRC program. For his own sanity, I can almost guarantee that he does not follow every minute detail of every part of the program. I'm pretty sure that because of his position, he is involved with the implemention of the new control system on only a basic level, leaving the Engineering group, the project team at NI, and everyone else involved with the '09 controls to work out the details. One of those details may end up being that future component X will not be compatible with the generation of cRIO teams will be getting for '09. In the context of the most recent blog post, I would say that
"if all goes well" should be translated as, "this is our plan now, but changes we make 2,5,or 10 years down the road may require us to change our plan."

Now, I have not talked to anyone at FIRST about the new system, nor have I had the opportunity to see the system first hand to know what it's limitations might be that would prevent reuse from one year to another. But we all have to remember that the system is still "young," and we may find out down the road that our best intentions in its design for whatever purpose(reuse, flexibility of design, etc, etc.) may not work out long term.

[neoshaakti]

Wouldn't it be possible for teams to reuse older controllers sitting around for demonstrations? I mean, it might be a little more work but it can serve as a fun off-season project.

Isn't NI donating the cRio to FIRST teams anyways? I dont know if I have my facts straight there, so if I don't, I apologize.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by neoshaakti

Isn't NI donating the cRio to FIRST teams anyways? I dont know if I have my facts straight there, so if I don't, I apologize.

No, most definitely not.

[R.C.]

I was just pondering on this fact since I saw the post go up. The crio will probably sell around $4000 at the MOST. I don't know the pricing, just throwing a number out there. It should be that if your team wants to fundraise extra hard or they have a supply of money, buy an extra set of controllers from year to year. We fundraised an extra $6,000 seperate from the our $40,000 budget in order to buy broaches and a really nice toolbox along with CNC tooling. So my main point is that teams should fundraise more to keep their robots going. I love our 08 robot more than the 07 because their so no maintainence on the 08. It works at any time of day and it doesn't have severe problems. And I do agree with Cory about IFI, they are solid and I prefer to use stuff that works. So guys, rememember that anything made can be bought but it might cost ya.

[dtengineering]

Having competed for five seasons now, I have to say that I was pretty comfortable with the way things were going with the IFI controller, and getting a new control system every year. So part of me is coming from the "if it aint' broke, don't fix it camp" and is saying, "Why change?"

On the other hand, I do know that sometimes it is precisely when things are going well and systems are established that it is time to change. "If you aren't moving, you aren't moving forward." after all.

So, yeah, its going to be different... but I'm not so sure it's going to be bad. I suspect if we need to keep a cRio robot running we'll just pull out the cRio and plug in an IFI system.

Jason

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

So, yeah, its going to be different... but I'm not so sure it's going to be bad. I suspect if we need to keep a cRio robot running we'll just pull out the cRio and plug in an IFI system.

Jason

I agreee

[Leav]

Re: putting in an IFI controller when you need the NI.

What about Rookie teams?
They won't have any demo bots left over from 2008!

they will only have the 2009 robot, no spare control system, and will have to cannibalize the 2009 robot for the sake of the 2010 one.

this means that for teams starting in 2009 onwards, they will only ever have one working robot at a time, while gathering a growing pile of robot shells.

I don't like this idea one bit, not even if there are two registration fees (with cRio and without).

-Leav

[Greg Marra]

Originally Posted by Leav

I don't like this idea one bit, not even if there are two registration fees (with cRio and without).

Really? Why not even then?

[thefro526]

My teacher and I were talking about this the other day and he thought and I thought it would be a good idea if FIRST were to charge one registration/KOP fee for when you want a new OI and another if you wish to reuse your old one. IE, check box a box on the application if you want a new CRIO and it adds XXXX to your application fee if your team has received one the previous year.

[EricH]

As a note, I have seen NOTHING saying that the control system won't be available for teams to purchase. What's that have to do with this discussion? Well, if you are able to purchase a controller, without the KOP tagging along, then it just might be that you can get a second one and rotate. Or, you can get a spare.

Then again, the dual-price registration works too. You just have to keep track of a) which teams are rookies and b) which teams want a second (third, fourth, fifth) controller, which can easily be done by sending them as soon as the team pays up, as is being done this year.

[Greg McKaskle]

A portion of this discussion brought up whether NI was donating the cRIOs to teams.

The press release from April deals with that aspect of the discussion. The complete post is at --http://digital.ni.com/worldwide/bwco...25742b00737df5

The third paragraph --

NI is granting a multimillion dollar in-kind donation over the next five years to FIRST to provide the CompactRIO system to participating teams. Several key technology suppliers have collaborated with NI to provide in-kind donations of components required to build the CompactRIO control system. These industry-leading technology companies include Altera, Analog Devices, Boston Engineering, ChipX, Dove Electronics, Freescale, MSI, Texas Instruments, TTI, Westak, Wind River, Worcester Polytechnic Institute and Xilinx. Their support is helping NI to supply a leading-edge, highly sophisticated embedded platform equivalent to the most advanced industrial systems.

An in-kind donations is not cash, more like coupons, and it isn't just NI, but many other companies donations that are allowing this to take place.

Concerning reuse, the cRIO connectors are quite different from the friction fit of the previous system. The chassis is held by at most two fasteners, and the modules are clipped in. Disconnecting the chassis and leaving the modules attached to the robot is very quick. The next layer of connects, on the modules, are mostly D-sub based, and also quick to reconnect. Over the coming months, I assume many teams will come up with strategies for quickly putting the computing "engine" back into the robot with little to no rewiring. A backup of code images to install over enet is another important piece needed to put a robot into a different robot.

Anyway, I'm not trying to lobby one way or the other about the reuse. I'm pointing out that the cRIO mechanical design does make reuse much easier to accomplish, though.

Greg McKaskle

[Kevin Sevcik]

What distresses me most about moving to the cRIO and not recieving a new system every year is the sheer amount of abuse teams often put their control systems through. Yes, I know, 4 foot drops onto concrete and all that jazz. I realized it's a hardened industrial controller meant to stand up to some pretty harsh environments. But I don't think it's actually design to withstand people intentionally trying to damage it, as so often happens with our rookies.

I'm seriously doubting that the cRIO is going to fair any better than the IFI controller did if a robot runs away at full speed with a tether cord attached to it. Nor do I think it will react well to metal shavings inside the case when the mechanical team is doing something while the cRIO isn't properly sealed. I can think of a dozen ways for the thing to get damaged, and extending its service life over several years isn't going to help. As for all the sidecars and bumpers and such.... Well I think their names were aptly chosen. So while it's a good policy to not trash things that don't need to be, things get trashed quite often in our competitions. Our robots are typically designed for ridiculousy short service lives and then horribly abused during said life. A semi-inexpensive controller that's replaceable seems to fit right in. If anyone in the thread competes in BEST, they already know the beating high school students can put on electronics reusing them year after year.

[Libby K]

I'm choosing not to state any opinion on this.
Why? Because I refuse to form an opinion before I know all the facts and I've heard them from FIRST.

Seriously, y'all. I loved IFI too, and I'm going to miss the system- it was truly fantastic. But this doesn't mean everything FIRST does from here on out is wrong, "BS", or that FIRST doesn't listen to teams. Yes, they have their faults; there are a lot of changes going on, and I'm sure they're hard to deal with from an HQ level just like they are for us here on teams and in the community.

What's with all the negativity? I'm becoming really disappointed in the ChiefDelphi community. Why is it impossible for us to see what happens and try to enjoy the season ahead without freaking out about the price for registration in 2010?

I, for one, am fully committed to not judge ANYTHING about the upcoming season until I've experienced it firsthand. I want to have fun my senior year, and that's what's going to matter to me. If I work with the new system, and I don't like it, O.K. So I don't like it, but that's what we have to work with. If I work with it and I end up liking it, that's great too. I want to go to a Michigan event to see the competition for myself- then I'll form my opinion. I'm not going to figure it out now. I hope more people have this attitude, but I'm certainly not seeing it in any of the discussions I've read so far.

It's life. Get over it, and stop whining until you actually know there's something to whine about.

That's my two cents, my opinion, take it as you wish. It's not meant to offend anyone, and if it does I'm truly sorry.
I wish I didn't have to apologize for stating my opinion on CD, but that's unfortunately what this forum is turning into.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Libby K

I'm choosing not to state any opinion on this.
Why? Because I refuse to form an opinion before I know all the facts and I've heard them from FIRST.

...

It's life. Get over it, and stop whining until you actually know there's something to whine about.

Coming from the background most of us have (some number of years--five in my case--of receiving a new IFI control system each season), I'd deem the announcement* of no plan to continue the practice of receiving a new control system something to at least grumble about. It's a change, and changes tend to induce grumbles/whining/outrage for better or worse.

*I'm considering a blog by the FRC Director linked to from usfirst.org with no disclaimer an official channel of communication from FIRST.

That said, Libby has a point--keeping an open mind is important. Greg raises the point that a controller transplant might not be as painful as we expect from our past experiences with the IFI system. The beta test teams may be able to expand on that, and I'm sure that FIRST is looking to make sure that switching doesn't involve an expletive-laden Saturday of work. We'll see in 106 days. In the meantime, I'm not sweating it. I'm sure everyone has plenty of other things to worry about as well.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

So, yeah, its going to be different... but I'm not so sure it's going to be bad. I suspect if we need to keep a cRio robot running we'll just pull out the cRio and plug in an IFI system.

Jason

Def. agree. I don't see this as a bad thing except we won't get new toys to run our classes every year