Should FIRST Release the 2009 Control System beta Libraries and information?

[Gdeaver]

Teams don't need the golden code, but it would be nice to see the libraries and VI's. They may have bugs but what is important for now is to see the over all structure that we will be programming into. That way teams can plan for training.

[pogenwurst]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

Teams don't need the golden code, but it would be nice to see the libraries and VI's. They may have bugs but what is important for now is to see the over all structure that we will be programming into. That way teams can plan for training.

Originally Posted by Elliot Swart

Even with the libraries, without the CompactRIO the non-beta test teams are not going to be activly debugging them. We will just get an overview of how the robot is controlled. While we need a beta test, there is no reason why non-beta test teams shouldn't have access to the beta information if they want it.

That's exactly why I think we at least need some sort of documentation. We have 3-4 new programmers and little time to teach them -- I'd like to be able to use that time as wisely as possible.

The thing I'm most curious about is what we'll have in terms of vision libraries to go with the camera.

[charrisTTI]

More eyes on the code will result in better code. Hardware is not required to do "code review" or read and digest documentation. However, time is required for all these tasks.

FIRST success is based on thousands of volunteers putting in hundreds of thousands of volunteer hours. The build season is already intense enough. I have given many FIRST software and hardware workshops. For a new topic, my preparation starts several months ahead of the scheduled date (I have to squeeze the work in around the day job and family committments). 18 teams cannot possibly meet the need for all of the training and workshops that need to be given for the 2008/09 season. Get all the information out ASAP so that we can ALL begin digesting, learning, and preparing.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by Elliot Swart

The primary issue with having access to the libraries is being aware of code structure. Just as the 2005-2008 controllers all had code that required a certain structure (user_rountines.c, different places for autonomous and teleoperated code), the CompactRIO is almost certainly getting a structure with a simliar function. While even if we cant program with the libraries, we can still design template code.

FIRST created the Beta Test public forums so that teams could ask specific questions like this. Unfortunately, no teams have really taken advantage of that resource. So go there and ask away.

[Roger]

I am planning for training. I hear mid November release. I'm planning for December training. A whole month. If we're lucky it'll be early November release, or after Thanksgiving. Not so lucky if it's released when I'm eating my turkey.

What would you like? See it now with all it's mistakes? From what I've seen (and here too) it's being polished up and final corrections made. The Beta people have to wade thru all the text and make things work. Think MPLab or EasyC with instructions that has sections missing or -- worse -- sections that may or may not have errors in it.

There are places that are showing off the new system -- check the 2009 FRC Control System Beta Test Public Forum for locations. I did your work for you, none yet in the SF area. But I'm sure there will.

Originally Posted by Elliot Swart

It is notable that many of the disenters are either from Beta Teams or in the beta testing groups. Your teams obviously feel themselves prepared to deal with the perils of beta code and information, why do you want to deprive that right from others.

I'm not a beta tester, and though I was contemplating it, it turns out New England wasn't in the running as WPI was here.

Beta testing is tough work. You have to take time out from your regular work (or schoolwork) to figure stuff out, and that's only part of the whole testing. You have to make it presentable, then present it all to other teams -- and that's still only part of the job. After the release you have to explain details of everything, how you got that, and all your findings, plus all your code you created with the beta testing. (You did see the agreement in the FIRST forum, didn't you?) Then, after Kickoff, you still have to be available to other teams to explain things, which takes time out from your programming.

Originally Posted by Elliot Swart

When a beta tester says that he doesn't think the other teams are ready to see what his team is allowed to, he either being condesending, or trying to retain his teams competative advantage.

I don't think that was called for.

Yes, I'd like the info early, too. I'd like the 2009 Game early, for that matter. It'll get here soon enough.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Elliot Swart

That's what I am trying to do. I just plan to let the poll sit for a couple of days, and if the % in favor of releaseing seems impressive enough, I'll write to FIRST asking them to release the information.

p.s. The public forum has very little information


I think one problem with the beta test are the group applications. Essentially, teams that applied together are getting access to all the information and code, even though they only have 1 compactRIO. Many more teams than the 18 beta testers have access to the code. Why shouldn't every team.

It is notable that many of the disenters are either from Beta Teams or in the beta testing groups. Your teams obviously feel themselves prepared to deal with the perils of beta code and information, why do you want to deprive that right from others.

While I think many people in the beta teams disagree with me about the release of information, please remember that FIRST is a competition, and they are being given an advantage. Thier programming and electronics people will be much better prepared at the start of the competition than the rest of the teams. While I don't resent them for being accepted into the beta tests, and I understand this test is necessary, as part of the FIRST community and pillars of the FIRST competition, they should be using thier influence to level the playing field, not fight against it.

When a beta tester says that he doesn't think the other teams are ready to see what his team is allowed to, he either being condesending, or trying to retain his teams competative advantage.

This is a bit of a self-fulfulling prophecy. Of COURSE teams are going to want that code. The question here is, will Ni and FIRST be able to support it. The obvious answer is, not a chance. 2000 teams, a couple of controls guys on each team, could very well amount to a couple hundred questions a day, all directed at a small support team.

Having the 18 teams trying them out gives Ni and FIRST not only time to fix the bugs, but also time to write up instructions that answer all the easily answered questions that teams are sure to ask.

As much as I want this control ssytem, I've been through rollouts like this before in other applications, and I've been on the support side. Once the support guys start getting overwhelmed, the quality of their support drops exponentially.

Finally, by picking those 18 teams, they're also training THEM to be able to answer questions to! That by itself is probably tripling the number of knowledgable question-answerers that will be available.

First has already stated they are trying to get everyone who wants them control systems in very early december. I feel that's more than enough time (one month) to get up to speed on the system before kick-off.

[Roger]

Oh look, you got noticed! Now we get to read the "many holes, inadequate explanations, and blatant errors." Well, at least my student programmers can scratch their heads over it for a couple of weeks. Okay, this pile-on is getting mightily unfair on Elliot, who is probably in 2nd period class right now.

[Elliot Swart]

Luckily I have a 3rd period prep. And if you're worried about confusing your poor students, you can always ask them to ignore the beta documentation until it's complete.

That being said, it's nice to know that FIRST is listening.

[RaMoore]

Elliot, we (FRC1817) definitely hear and understand your frustration. I would really like to see the code structure to even just get a loose idea of the direction FIRST and NI are planning to implement this new controller. I would rather "waste" my time reading beta materials and have them completely changed for the final version than sit here in the dark. It's understood that non-beta test teams are not going to be supported by FIRST or NI until they ship our controllers.

There has been more worry and dread over this new controller than I could have ever guessed, but it seems because some mentors are having trouble with change we are all being babied. Sorry if that's too harsh... (this is not meant against FIRST or NI in particular, more a frustration with the community)

Per FIRST's official response, it sounds like the beta materials were in a very raw state... and, if in fact, they intend to release them in short order the delay seems reasonable.

[Roger]

FIRST always listens -- they just don't always show it. Maybe you should listen a little to what other people are saying.

They have a schedule, and an extremely tight one at that. They made decisions, and -- right or wrong -- nothing they've done is unreasonable or unsurprising. The whole package in November, software maybe earlier. Saying "Are we there yet?" doesn't get it any quicker, or give them incentive to go any faster.

Having 16 Beta teams pointing out the same error to the WPI folks is much better than thousands of teams. "More eyes on the code" may result in better code, but only when there is something decent to begin with. And when has a thousand-member committee ever produced anything decent?

Originally Posted by RaMoore

There has been more worry and dread over this new controller than I could have ever guessed, but it seems because some mentors are having trouble with change we are all being babied. Sorry if that's too harsh... (this is not meant against FIRST or NI in particular, more a frustration with the community)

It's not harsh at all, it's just untrue. FIRST doesn't consult with the mentors about big changes, and I think you know that. I'm also not "troubled" with changes. They certainly don't baby us!

I for one am not worrying nor dreading the new controller, and I don't remember reading about anyone dreading it. On the contrary, there is a lot of excitement about it. I was excited when it rolled out at Atlanta, even more when I saw it at WPI's BattleCry.

And Elliot, I'm not worried about confusing my "poor students". They're not even thinking about FRC right now -- they're busy mentoring FLL students.