Interesting Newsletter from NI

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by gorrilla

actually it wouldent be that hard just make a square and fill it with water and draining wouldent be a problem because most arenas have drains in the floor

Lets talk semantics...

6' x 24' x 48' aquarium holds exactly 6912 feet cubed of water. That equals about 52,000 gallons of water. Your standard water hose does about 10 gallons per minute. So lets say one hose is to fill that giant cube? It would take it 5,200 minutes, or about 3 days.

So lets say we were to bring in a firetruck hose and tapped into an emergency fire hydrant sorce. It would take just about 70 minutes to fill that cube. That cube would then weigh 182 tons. Thats a lot of water.

Now the field must be deconstructable, because you have to move the field from regional to regional. To make this aquarium you can't just bolt 1" thick plexi together. You'd have to glue it, so it wouldn't be reusable. The price of the playing field would be incredible to have to buy 48' x 6' and 24' x 6' sheets, especially plexi thick enough to support 182 tons of water. And not just buy 8 or so of those, but by a whole new aquarium per regional to glue together.

A water game is just too expensive for FIRST to be doing. That is, unless they shrunk the field back to 1993 proportions and made the bots 12" x 12"

Also making a waterproof bot is an INCREDIBLY daunting task for any FIRST team to be doing. To make an ROV that is lets say 26" x 36" would be getting into tens of thousands of dollars. ROV's are incredibly expensive to make and maintain, especially those that are designed to do a task, even those as simple as picking stuff up. We can create rolling robots that can pick up giant balls and shoot them for under a thousand dollars, to be picking up something as small as jewelry with a large ROV could cost a team easily over 10,000 dollars.

Of course you can always make a boat type game, which would take away the 3d aspect of a watergame. But if you are going to do a boating game, then why not just play the same thing on land? Cheaper to build the field, easier to build the field, less mess, less cost for the teams and FIRST.

[gorrilla]

well most universitys have some sort of retention pond or lake nearby and unless its frozen its easy to get a pump and pump in and out water


it dosent have to be that deep just 4-5 feet just enough so that the robots would be able to submerge completely




and a boat type game would be even easier

and for rookie teams it would probobly be as complex or maybe even simpler than having to build a land vehicle because you dont have to deal with wheels and weight


it would de easy enough for first to supply a modified kitbot type thing to make a flat bottomed boat

[Thermal]

Bouyancy is still an issue, and you'll be even less stable in water than you would be on land. CoG plays a much much bigger role in a water game than it does on land because if you tip over on land, you just flip the bot back over. If you capsize the bot in water, all your electronics and motors just went for a drink...

In the end, $$$$$$$ will prevent a water game. I couldn't imagine the frustration in the pits when 5 or so teams are out of the competition on friday alone because their electronics wasn't waterproof to the point that it could take total submergance.

A water game is just too hard to build a bot for in 6 weeks for all but the best teams. If you want to make FIRST an elitist competition, then go for a water game with brand new electronics and coding. If you want FIRST to be available for all to compete, then you simply cannot do a water game.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by gorrilla

well most universitys have some sort of retention pond or lake nearby and unless its frozen its easy to get a pump and pump in and out water


it dosent have to be that deep just 4-5 feet just enough so that the robots would be able to submerge completely




and a boat type game would be even easier

and for rookie teams it would probobly be as complex or maybe even simpler than having to build a land vehicle because you dont have to deal with wheels and weight


it would de easy enough for first to supply a modified kitbot type thing to make a flat bottomed boat

My university doesn't have a holding pond... What about sports arenas? Most of those don't (and many competitions aren't held at universities--good luck in Atlanta).

Rookies have a hard enough time moving on land. Now, add water. You do have to deal with weight, you have to deal with water, you have buoyancy, CG, center of moment...

Fluids class, anyone?

[gorrilla]

well maybe its just florida?


anyways id just like a bigger challenge than this year the least they could have done was add a ramp underneath the overpass or allow you to score on both sides

[Jon Jack]

I hate to ruin everyones fantasies of a water game, but NI and LabView are also used in underwater robotics competitions such as AUVSI. There a lot of collegiate teams in these competitions that use LabView.

Lets face it, the logistical problems connected to a water game are far too great.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by gorrilla

well most universitys have some sort of retention pond or lake nearby and unless its frozen its easy to get a pump and pump in and out water

Oh yeah, let's fill it with dirty muck.

And remember, several event venues have an expensive wooden basketball court under the field. Whether it would hold up to the weight is doubtful - who wants field-sized dents in their floor, let alone having it smash through to the foundation. But no one in their right mind would allow a tank on their hardwood. Even if it didn't leak, those robots come out dripping wet.

[JaneYoung]

I've never understood why the water discussion is always the field. It would be interesting as a game piece or a small part of the field but not necessarily the field, itself.

Being the field just doesn't hold water.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

I've never understood why the water discussion is always the field. It would be interesting as a game piece or a small part of the field but not necessarily the field, itself.

Being the field just doesn't hold water.

Jane,

I thought of this at least a couple of years ago, but I didn't post because I didn't want to give Dave any fiendish ideas. He has enough without our help.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Jane,

I thought of this at least a couple of years ago, but I didn't post because I didn't want to give Dave any fiendish ideas. He has enough without our help.

ooooo O.O - sorry Chris, Gary's fault. He started with the dirty muck, I lost control...

[gorrilla]

well its not suppsed to have rotting sewage in it!

why would they leave the wooden court out it rolls up you know

[EricH]

Originally Posted by gorrilla

why would they leave the wooden court out it rolls up you know

You don't exactly roll up a hardwood floor, the "cushion" underneath it, and everything else overnight.

Hockey arenas are easier--put something over the ice, or melt it and drain it. Not many events are in hockey arenas, though.

[gorrilla]

i think theres a machine that does it in like 30 minutes ill have to look it up its like a zamboni only smaller

[artdutra04]

Let's be pragmatic. You won't see a water game from FIRST.

Why?

...There are other competitions that deal with water.

...Water is too much trouble for all the competitions and offseason events.

...Everything moves so much slower in water, so any competitive game would be either long or boring.

...Competitions in places in severe drought with water bans in effect would be screwed.

...Water is heavy. Unless the area was designed specifically to hold vast quantities of water, structural issues may come into play.

...Leaks

Is it possible? Yes. Are the hurdles to jump high? Very. Would a water game provide a level of inspiration equal or grater than the increase in effort necessary to pull it off? Probably not.

[ezygmont708]

Logistics of A Water Game...

1) Many venues simply wouldn't allow a water game
A) Many of the venues used for FRC competitions are also used for other sports, including Ice Hockey. The equipment used to produce ice under the FRC provided flooring would not be very tolerant of a vast amount of weight "water" in a concentrated area (Soverign Bank Arena).
B) No collegiate organization is goining to risk water exposure to their very expensive wood courts (which by the way don't always "roll up")
2) It would make off-season competitions nearly impossible.
A) I know this wouldn't go over very well with our School District.
3) Impracticality of being able to test the robot before ship

Just a few thoughts from a non-engineering mentor, who knoews a little about venues and their restrictions...

Although a water game would be interesting!!! I once water proofed a remote control car, put and extended floating antenna, attached a dewalt drill motor, and an underwater camera, and drove it through a creek... Should have saved that video!!!