Online "Spy-sheets"?

[archiver]

Posted by soap108 at 1/22/2001 2:12 PM EST


Engineer on team #108, SigmaC@T, from Dillard & Taravella HS and Motorola.


In Reply to: Re: "Come see the softer side of FIRST...."
Posted by Robby on 1/20/2001 8:02 PM EST:



My name is Kenny. I'm a leader on the SOAP team. These are my personal comments.

I agree. The last thing I want is to see is 100 teams competing with regards to scouting...It's enough stress just to build a robot and win a few matches. And it would be a distraction to the real headlines- businesses partnering with students to compliment their text-book education via building robots to play a game on a national level.

One thing having the database has done for our team is it expanded the domain of FIRST into the Computer Science and Networking/IT fields. Except for the BOM db, there was no reason to teach/mentor students in this area. Typically one kid was assigned to work with one engineer on that. We now have about 12 dedicated “SOAP StUDentS” that are interested in building db’s and looking at how they integrate with the web, other db’s, etc… They were not too keen on the robot, but wanted to be on the team. Problem solved.

Another thing was our robot last year was sub-par for our standards. SOAP and Robby’s SharingFIRST I-candy animations became the lead ‘saving graces’ that made 2000 a great year for SigmaC@T. That and successfully integrating a new high school partner (Taravella) into one team.

SOAP pursued and won the national J&J award, but certainly we recognize the GMCIA scouting efforts as wonderful too. Also, Look at how 340 G.r.r. created essentially a similar FM Pro Db like us and decided to make it an exe and distribute on Cd-ROM. That’s a great idea…but it is a bit simpler to let one group collect and then share the info. They also pioneered the searchable-rules-on-CD effort…another great idea. However, all us should have read and understood the manual before hand anyway.

For those that are not aware, GMCIA were the ones recognized at the Motorola MidWest last year for the J&J award. Keep in mind both systems were recognized by _JUDGES_, not really by FIRST. Hopefully, gmcia feels the way we do, that last year is last year. We both ‘proved’ that we have assembled great technology for the benefit of EVERYONE. Hopefully, we have the pursue-an-award-for-getting-an-award's sake out of our system can focus on/market the real intent of our technologies... sharing, and enhancing the events! It’s time to let the award go back to teams who show sportsmanship in-the-heat-of-(robot)-battle. Does that sound right?

It's kinda neat to see two teams independently come up with huge databases for tracking teams. We're both veteran teams (>6 yrs experience) and recognized the need for such a system because of the growth of FIRST. I was the lead driver & strategist for our team in '96 and '97 and wished this had started this sooner. Even tracking 33 teams at a regional was a challenge, especially since some teams (like ours) has to send a 'skeleton crew' to the comp.

Is it not to everyone's advantage to 'register' their info in one database then to have a group from every team roam through the pits asking basically the same questions at the same time? Imagine the reduction in "pit traffic" as a result. More people can enjoy the robot co-opertition because they don't need to worry about collecting data & information. I wish I could have seen and cheered on my team in their matches. I saw 1, just 1.

At the very least, all teams should want to submit their answers to Yes/No questions regarding their ability. Whether they wish to quantify (how many, how fast, etc) could be up to them...eventually we'll notice/observe their robot and put that info in the db anyway. Did it last year, will do again. Teams can still have tricks up their sleeve like not using features until later, much like 16’s stealth ball removal at MidWest.

Whew! That’s a lot of writing.
Pls let me give you one last piece of food for thought...I just want to 'think out-loud' and see what you, the teams, have to say:
Does not competition provide positive, constructive motivation? Does not Ford try harder to design and build better autos because chevy, crysler, etc…are also trying hard? Would Motorola spend less effort making a quality cel-phone if there wasn’t a Nokia or Ericsson?
Here’s the question that hasn’t been asked in B&W…Should GMCIA and SOAP combine? Would either of our efforts be reduced if the other didn’t exist? I don’t have the answer…but I can assure you if 100 teams all try the same thing It won’t work. It will have a negative effect. If we did combine, can we remain distinct and yet work together? I hope so. If not this year, definitely 2002. Now that would say much more than any award could.

I’m done now.
Regards,
Kenny – Team 108

[archiver]

Posted by Andy Baker at 1/22/2001 2:32 PM EST


Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: It's all here...my comments on the scouting threads
Posted by soap108 on 1/22/2001 2:12 PM EST:




: Here’s the question that hasn’t been asked in B&W…Should GMCIA and SOAP combine? Would either of our efforts be reduced if the other didn’t exist?

By all means, yes.

We provided hardware for the GMCIA effort at Nationals last year. TechnoKats who entered data into the systems also did not get to see any matches.

We're committed to SOAP, since we are going to the Motorola Midwest Regional (along with W. Mich. and Nationals).

There are some hurdles to getting both the GMCIA and SOAP systems compatable. One is the technical hurdle or the fact that the systems need to be compatable. The other is the content, where we need to decide what information is obtained and provided.

These issues should not be too difficult to overcome.

Andy B.

[archiver]

Posted by wehba at 1/20/2001 3:21 PM EST


Student on team #513, Renegade Robotics, from Thomas Jefferson Middle School and nasa.


In Reply to: Online "Spy-sheets"?
Posted by JVN on 1/19/2001 10:37 PM EST:



That sounds a little ILLEGAL but hey it is your team.

[archiver]

Posted by Carrie at 1/20/2001 10:55 PM EST


Student on team #27, Team Rush, from OSMTech Academy and Textron.


In Reply to: Re: Online "Spy-sheets"?
Posted by wehba on 1/20/2001 3:21 PM EST:



: That sounds a little ILLEGAL but hey it is your team.

It's not Illegal. we have been using scouting sheets for 5 years now, if your a rookie team I suggest that you make one up. They really do help!
~~~Carrie 27

[archiver]

Posted by wehba at 1/24/2001 7:21 PM EST


Student on team #513, Renegade Robotics, from Thomas Jefferson Middle School and nasa.


In Reply to: Re: Online "Spy-sheets"?
Posted by Carrie on 1/20/2001 10:55 PM EST:



: : That sounds a little ILLEGAL but hey it is your team.

: It's not Illegal. we have been using scouting sheets for 5 years now, if your a rookie team I suggest that you make one up. They really do help!
: ~~~Carrie 27


How do I make one up?

[archiver]

Posted by Joe Ross at 1/24/2001 7:51 PM EST


Engineer on team #330, Beach Bot, from Hope Chapel Academy and NASA/JPL , J&F Machine, and Raytheon.


In Reply to: Re: Online "Spy-sheets"?
Posted by wehba on 1/24/2001 7:21 PM EST:



: How do I make one up?

Our team has used scouting sheets in the past. They are designed so that your drivers and coaches know as much about the teams you are playing with as possible. This year it is even more critical than in past years, becuase you don't have much time to plan strategy before the matches. It can easily take all the strategy time just explaining the capabilities of each robot.

Here is how our team goes about making up our scouting sheets. I'm sure that there are many other methods also, but this is what we do:

We first make a list of all the capabilites that we think a robot could have. Then we list all the other things that we would be helpful to know about a robot. Next we divide these things into two categories: Capabilities that we can find out by asking and observing in the pits, and Capabilites that we need to watch the robot in action for. We then make up a document with one side for the first category and the back side for the second category.

Some ideas for things that might be put on a scouting sheet: a checkbox for whether or not they can go underneath the bar. A space to list strength and weaknesses. A place to describe the robot, so drivers don't have to recognize by team number only. Another useful thing is to have a spot describing a possible strategy if your team is paired with this team

After the scouting sheets are made, you need to use them. Depending on the size and involvement level of you team, you designate people to be "scouts". Their job is to fill out your scouting sheets for as many teams as possible.

What you will find, is that the scouting sheets can be very helpful, but only if filled out accuretly. This is the reason for the two sides. you will find that most teams will unintentionally inflate the capabilites of their robot. Once you see the robot in action, you have a clearer picture of what the robot can really do, but you don't get the full picture until you both talk to the team and watch the robot.

Last year there were at least two collaborative efforts among teams, so that each team didn't have to scout every robot. They were, for the most part, very succesfull. Those two were called: SOAP and GMCIA. you can find out more about SOAP at their website: soap108.com and you can find out more information about GMCIA by e-mailing Nate Smith (you can find his e-mail address in his profile). There was also a message posted earlier about the two systems combining so you may want to look for more information about that.

I hope I haven't needlessly bored you and I hope that I have given you some good information.

Joe Ross
Beach Bot, Team 330

[archiver]

Posted by soap108 at 1/24/2001 8:09 PM EST


Engineer on team #108, SigmaC@T, from Dillard & Taravella HS and Motorola.


In Reply to: scouting sheets
Posted by Joe Ross on 1/24/2001 7:51 PM EST:



Echoing an earlier post:

soap108.com is still having DNS issues with the company Net Services (they have a nasty habit of losing things...like multiple confirmations that we paid-up a year ago)

Anyway, that should be resolved by this Saturday. You can still get there by http://63.239.116.179/ New and refreshed pages will start appearing this weekend.

Enjoy.
The S.O.A.P. Team
Team 108 - SigmaC@T

p.s. Question for GMCIA users: What were the key features that you found to be most appealing/useful?
Same question for SOAP users.

If we combine, we would like to know what you appreciated and what you could get by w/o having.

Thanks! ;~)


: : How do I make one up?

: Our team has used scouting sheets in the past. They are designed so that your drivers and coaches know as much about the teams you are playing with as possible. This year it is even more critical than in past years, becuase you don't have much time to plan strategy before the matches. It can easily take all the strategy time just explaining the capabilities of each robot.

: Here is how our team goes about making up our scouting sheets. I'm sure that there are many other methods also, but this is what we do:

: We first make a list of all the capabilites that we think a robot could have. Then we list all the other things that we would be helpful to know about a robot. Next we divide these things into two categories: Capabilities that we can find out by asking and observing in the pits, and Capabilites that we need to watch the robot in action for. We then make up a document with one side for the first category and the back side for the second category.

: Some ideas for things that might be put on a scouting sheet: a checkbox for whether or not they can go underneath the bar. A space to list strength and weaknesses. A place to describe the robot, so drivers don't have to recognize by team number only. Another useful thing is to have a spot describing a possible strategy if your team is paired with this team

: After the scouting sheets are made, you need to use them. Depending on the size and involvement level of you team, you designate people to be "scouts". Their job is to fill out your scouting sheets for as many teams as possible.

: What you will find, is that the scouting sheets can be very helpful, but only if filled out accuretly. This is the reason for the two sides. you will find that most teams will unintentionally inflate the capabilites of their robot. Once you see the robot in action, you have a clearer picture of what the robot can really do, but you don't get the full picture until you both talk to the team and watch the robot.

: Last year there were at least two collaborative efforts among teams, so that each team didn't have to scout every robot. They were, for the most part, very succesfull. Those two were called: SOAP and GMCIA. you can find out more about SOAP at their website: soap108.com and you can find out more information about GMCIA by e-mailing Nate Smith (you can find his e-mail address in his profile). There was also a message posted earlier about the two systems combining so you may want to look for more information about that.

: I hope I haven't needlessly bored you and I hope that I have given you some good information.

: Joe Ross
: Beach Bot, Team 330

[archiver]

Posted by Carrie at 1/26/2001 11:26 AM EST


Student on team #27, Team Rush, from OSMTech Academy and Textron.


In Reply to: Re: Online "Spy-sheets"?
Posted by wehba on 1/24/2001 7:21 PM EST:



: : : That sounds a little ILLEGAL but hey it is your team.

: : It's not Illegal. we have been using scouting sheets for 5 years now, if your a rookie team I suggest that you make one up. They really do help!
: : ~~~Carrie 27

:
: How do I make one up?

Go through everything from robot function to strategy. Every team looks for something different, our team looks for startegy. But ask questions like do they handle big balls.. or do they control the bridge stuff like that.
~~~~Carrie 27

[archiver]

Posted by Tom at 1/20/2001 7:44 PM EST


Student on team #25, Raider Robotix, from North Brunswick Township High School and Bristol Myers-Squib.


In Reply to: Online "Spy-sheets"?
Posted by JVN on 1/19/2001 10:37 PM EST:



: In the spirit of cooperation and the kindler gentler FIRST has anyone thought of compiling a
: database of info on all the teams?
: In past years our team has written up "spy sheets" (that name doesn't seem appropriate this
: year) on as many teams as we could. This year that could be beneficial to everyone. If a couple
: teams got together after the regionals and contributed we could have almost everyone profiled.
: Ahh well, it is hard for me to get over "veil-of-secrecy" we used to use in the past. (old habits
: die hard) I'm sure it will be like that with other teams too. But if we got enough people together
: we could definitely pull it off.
: Whatever, it's just an idea.

: ~John #250

My team (team 25) will have a place in the pit area where we will print out copies of scouting results and pictures of other team's robots. We'll also have an online database open 27/7 with all the information too.

~Tom McLean
Team 25 Wemaster and Computer Guy

[archiver]

Posted by soap108 at 1/22/2001 10:21 AM EST


Engineer on team #108, SigmaC@T, from Dillard & Taravella HS and Motorola.


In Reply to: Online "Spy-sheets"?
Posted by JVN on 1/19/2001 10:37 PM EST:



I have read the forum and I like what I hear. As you know, the award winning SOAP project won an award for sportsmanship. This was because we allowed ALL teams to view our database. This was a new step that we took last year and was a great asset to FIRST teams. But why stop there. This year our next goal is to get other teams involved as well. This is why are have officially teamed up with Wildstang and Techokats. Teaming up with more teams is a strong possibility. We can discuss this more in detail. However, according to the forum, it seems that many teams are going to create their own database with their own booth at FIRST. This does not sound like a teaming effort. Perhaps a better solution is to have one database with many teams feeding the data. This is a lot more efficient and would provide higher accuracy of information.

Every year we try to add more features to SOAP. Some of the new features of SOAP is listed below along those from previous years.

Web Site
- Registration Forms/Team Profile (This will allow teams to enter their scouting information before any competition and can be updated at any time)
- Online database (Teams can query the SOAP database from just about any where)
- Communications (Possibly a forum and or chat server)
- Real-time update (Match information and rankings from competitions)
- Playbook (Different scenarios and their possible scoring advantages)

Database
- Digital Video of matches (Our database stores a digital video of every match, including those from certain regionals)
- Match scores (Our SOAPsters are continuously updating our database with the latest match results)
- Team Rankings (Based on match results, real-time updates of the latest rankings)
- Scouting information (Complete profile of all teams, this includes their strengths and weakness as well as match information)
- Kiosk (A kiosk will be available at the competition for querying of the database and video viewing)
- And much more...

Paging System
- The ability to send alpha pages, cellular pages, and emails.
- Match information (When registered for this service, you will receive match information for the teams you specified)
- On-Deck alerts (When registered for this service, you will receive a page when your team is up next)
- Kiosk (A kiosk will be available at the competition for registration)


Teaming up with other teams would enable SOAP to be at more regionals. We are currently limited to the Motorola Midwest Regional and the National Competition due to space limitations. If you are attending a regional that is space permitting and would like to participate in video recording, please contact us so that we can coordinate this with FIRST thru the proper channels.


From the SOAP team.

[archiver]

Posted by soap108 at 1/22/2001 3:25 PM EST


Engineer on team #108, SigmaC@T, from Dillard & Taravella HS and Motorola.


In Reply to: SOAP
Posted by soap108 on 1/22/2001 10:21 AM EST:



I received an email from the GMCIA group this morning. They have expressed interest in teaming up and combining our two systems. As far as the technical aspect that Andy B. describe in his reply to Kenny, I think their should be one database. This way all teams get the same information. Hence the term, combine. As far as GMCIA, we are going to discuss the details at our next meeting. No decisions have been made yet. My question to all you out there, would you like to see both teams team-up, and would your team like to participate as well? Just a small survey...