New Game Progress

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by spc295

I hope they dont change the size on us, because I have put way to much time into designing a universal chassis, and come Jan 3 I dont want to have to start over, or make any changes.

So you mean you spent a lot of time doing the thing that FIRST asks teams not to do? Hmmmm.

Yeah, Jeff is right....

-dave


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[Sam2197]

Originally Posted by ebarker

Somewhere in North America a water game is being examined.....





more information might be found here: a lot more photos

would that be considered rack and row...

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by dlavery

So you mean you spent a lot of time doing the thing that FIRST asks teams not to do? Hmmmm.

Yeah, Jeff is right....

-dave


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Oh No.
Dave is smiling.
**Shudders**

[mtaman02]

I sense a disturbance in the force. A presence I felt since........

[synth3tk]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Oh No.
Dave is smiling.
**Shudders**

Let's try not to scare any new CDers

He shudders, because he's thinking about all the evil hints and red herrings, the ones that the WONDERFUL Dave keeps from us, making us feel safe. SAFE. DAVE IS SAFE....

[spc295]

Originally Posted by dlavery

So you mean you spent a lot of time doing the thing that FIRST asks teams not to do? Hmmmm.

Yeah, Jeff is right....

-dave


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there is no rule that says we cant draw chassis in CAD Programs, we just cant start milling any of the drawings, or building anything yet.

[synth3tk]

Originally Posted by spc295

there is no rule that says we cant draw chassis in CAD Programs, we just cant start milling any of the drawings, or building anything yet.

Dave, that's what we, in the video game world, call getting "pwned".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwned

[EricH]

Originally Posted by spc295

there is no rule that says we cant draw chassis in CAD Programs, we just cant start milling any of the drawings, or building anything yet.

Yes... and no. From the 2008 rules (the most current available in this case), R27 reads:

<R27> Prior to the Kick-off: Before the formal start of the Robot Build Season, teams are encouraged to think as much as they please about their ROBOTS. They may develop prototypes, create proof-of-concept models, and conduct design exercises. Teams may gather all the raw stock materials and COTS COMPONENTS they want. But absolutely no fabrication or assembly of any elements intended for the final ROBOT is permitted prior to the Kick-off presentation

and would now be in effect. You are correct, design is not prohibited, especially at vague levels. You could even build the designs, provided that anything you build does not make it onto the final robot.

HOWEVER: Bill's Blog advises against this. Moreover (and more to the point), there is an explanatory note right before <R27> that reads in part:

Teams can not be prevented from thinking about their hardware and software designs, and it is not our intention to do so. However, the timeline permitted for the development of the actual competition version of the ROBOT is severely, and intentionally, restricted. [...] But completing detailed dimensioned drawings of parts, and any actual fabrication of any hardware items intended to go on the actual competition ROBOT is prohibited outside of the approved fabrication periods.

The removed portion is examples of acceptable activities.

So, you are borderline right now. You may or may not have those drawings, but if you don't, you might want to consider not proceeding further. Of course, a proof-of-concept of something like a universal chassis might be worth building as a proof-of-concept, whether or not it was used in competition. While these quotes are not rules, they are from official sources, and should be treated as such.

This is one of those areas that could change a bit, especially with Dave having noticed.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by spc295

there is no rule that says we cant draw chassis in CAD Programs, we just cant start milling any of the drawings, or building anything yet.

FIRST has been pretty clear in stating that you should not be preparing any final, detailed, dimensioned designs (or fabricating final parts, etc) before the start of the build season. Both the referenced portion of Section 8.3.4 of the previous rules, and the entry in Bill's Blog give information regarding this intent. But when you state, as you did in your original post, that "I have put way to much time into designing a universal chassis, and come Jan 3 I dont want to have to start over, or make any changes" then you make it unambiguous that is exactly what you are doing. FIRST's intent and those actions are obviously in conflict. Based on the advice from Bill's Blog, you might want to think carefully about just how much time you want to invest in developing a detailed final design that you may not be able to use.

Originally Posted by synth3tk

Dave, that's what we, in the video game world, call getting "pwned".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwned

and that's what we, in the engineering world, call a completely unnecessary statement.

-dave



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[Vikesrock]

I believe Dave has just successfully executed the often elusive pwn-back (I would link to Urban Dictionary here, but that site is definitely on, if not over, the line of things I am comfortable linking to on CD).

[JaneYoung]

The last little bit of exchanges in this thread are a great example of what I sometimes think of as the Dave phenomenon and although cool, I sometimes wonder if his points are getting across to our young and future engineering minds. Dave is well-known in CD for his humor, his hints, and his wit. For many who take the time to read his posts very carefully, he is also known for his intelligent wisdom, his guidance, and his wealth of knowledge. The concern I have in this last exchange is that some folks will get caught up in the pwn/pwn-back and potentially miss the information that he shared in his post regarding design aspects of the robot as well as providing an opportunity to think beyond the gaming world and into the engineering world. Different perspectives, different expectations - if one thinks about it. Dave is very cool and also very fun, but he is also a respected source of knowledge and experience. It an amazing opportunity for the young students involved in FRC to experience.

Sorry, I've been wanting to say this for several years and finally did. I'll stop now.

[Vikesrock]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

The last little bit of exchanges in this thread are a great example of what I sometimes think of as the Dave phenomenon and although cool, I sometimes wonder if his points are getting across to our young and future engineering minds. Dave is well-known in CD for his humor, his hints, and his wit. For many who take the time to read his posts very carefully, he is also known for his intelligent wisdom, his guidance, and his wealth of knowledge. The concern I have in this last exchange is that some folks will get caught up in the pwn/pwn-back and potentially miss the information that he shared in his post regarding design aspects of the robot as well as providing an opportunity to think beyond the gaming world and into the engineering world. Different perspectives, different expectations - if one thinks about it. Dave is very cool and also very fun, but he is also a respected source of knowledge and experience. It an amazing opportunity for the young students involved in FRC to experience.

Sorry, I've been wanting to say this for several years and finally did. I'll stop now.

Thank you Jane, you are right on as always. My post was in no way meant to take anything away from the informative and insightful post Dave made and if even one person gets "caught up in it" and misses what Dave or you wrote then I am sorry.

If you are reading this and you didn't read both Dave and Jane's post, please go back now and do so.

[JaneYoung]

Kevin, thank you for your kind words.
Actually, you created an amazing example for me to point to with the elusive pwn-back - in asking young students to please take the time to think past the thought they have in their head, when reading Dave's posts, that they are a hint or they are funny. Dave's posts can be all or some of that, for sure, but they are often much much more as well. That's all I was asking for folks to think about. We are limited by our own preconceived notions sometimes, missing great opportunities to see great beauty or to learn from the best.

Thank you again.
Jane

[Burmeister #279]

[edit] Not to interrupt.....
Eventually the GDC's gonna have a game piece called Red Herring just to mess with all of us on behalf of Dave lol >.<

[spc295]

Originally Posted by dlavery

FIRST has been pretty clear in stating that you should not be preparing any final, detailed, dimensioned designs (or fabricating final parts, etc) before the start of the build season. Both the referenced portion of Section 8.3.4 of the previous rules, and the entry in Bill's Blog give information regarding this intent. But when you state, as you did in your original post, that "I have put way to much time into designing a universal chassis, and come Jan 3 I dont want to have to start over, or make any changes" then you make it unambiguous that is exactly what you are doing. FIRST's intent and those actions are obviously in conflict. Based on the advice from Bill's Blog, you might want to think carefully about just how much time you want to invest in developing a detailed final design that you may not be able to use.


and that's what we, in the engineering world, call a completely unnecessary statement.

-dave



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I agree with what you are saying. what i meant was that it would be nice if the game really fit with our chassis, but by no means were we trying to gain an unfair advantage.