Go to Post If a suspicious distrustful atmosphere is created, then a suspicious distrustful reaction will occur. - JaneYoung [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 10:19
EricVanWyk EricVanWyk is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 1,597
EricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to EricVanWyk
"Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

As a mentor, how do you ensure that your students read the manuals?

It has become painfully apparent to me that many of us in the FIRST community live by Bob the Builder's phrase "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing." I know I have been guilty of it myself in the past, and I understand the allure to doing something without looking at the manual.

However, manuals are written for a reason: They are not created to satisfy someone's desire to feel important, they are created to ensure safe and successful operation of the devices.

The new control system has a lot of safety features intended to protect against mis-wiring, but protecting against some things are simply infeasible. For a quick example, the chassis of the camera is grounded and therefore must be insulated from the robot chassis.

We need to work to change the phrase to "Instructions are for people who want to do it right."

One of my mentors once told me that "Everything is easy and makes sense, so long as you do it right the first time and don't screw it up." He was specifically speaking about RF, but I find it translates well to just about everything I do.
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 10:28
mathking's Avatar
mathking mathking is offline
Coach/Faculty Advisor
AKA: Greg King
FRC #1014 (Dublin Robotics aka "Bad Robots")
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 635
mathking has a reputation beyond reputemathking has a reputation beyond reputemathking has a reputation beyond reputemathking has a reputation beyond reputemathking has a reputation beyond reputemathking has a reputation beyond reputemathking has a reputation beyond reputemathking has a reputation beyond reputemathking has a reputation beyond reputemathking has a reputation beyond reputemathking has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

I am going to try a simple method this year. (Simple for me.) I am having the student controls (electrical and programming) team leads design a test or some other method to make sure everyone who is working with the control system has read the manual. They have to get it approved by myself and the other lead mentor. This means they will have to read the manual. And they will figure out how to make sure everyone else has. We will keep a list of approved team members. Just like we do for the tools in the shop.
__________________
Thank you Bad Robots for giving me the chance to coach this team.
Rookie All-Star Award: 2003 Buckeye
Engineering Inspiration Award: 2004 Pittsburgh, 2014 Crossroads
Chairman's Award: 2005 Pittsburgh, 2009 Buckeye, 2012 Queen City
Team Spirit Award: 2007 Buckeye, 2015 Queen City
Woodie Flowers Award: 2009 Buckeye
Dean's List Finalists: Phil Aufdencamp (2010), Lindsey Fox (2011), Kyle Torrico (2011), Alix Bernier (2013), Deepthi Thumuluri (2015)
Gracious Professionalism Award: 2013 Buckeye
Innovation in Controls Award: 2015 Pittsburgh
Event Finalists: 2012 CORI, 2016 Buckeye
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 10:37
gorrilla's Avatar
gorrilla gorrilla is offline
1557 alumni, 4639 mentor
AKA: adam spears
FRC #4639 (RoboSpartans)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Houston
Posts: 956
gorrilla has a brilliant futuregorrilla has a brilliant futuregorrilla has a brilliant futuregorrilla has a brilliant futuregorrilla has a brilliant futuregorrilla has a brilliant futuregorrilla has a brilliant futuregorrilla has a brilliant futuregorrilla has a brilliant futuregorrilla has a brilliant futuregorrilla has a brilliant future
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
We will keep a list of approved team members. Just like we do for the tools in the shop.


as in the machining tools? or all the tools?

that sounds great, but some people might feel left out.
__________________
Adam Spears



Team 1557 2007-2011 student-Lake County FL

Current Team 4639 mentor- Houston TX
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 10:44
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Joining the 900 Meme Team
FRC #0079
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 4,062
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

Quote:
Originally Posted by gorrilla View Post
as in the machining tools? or all the tools?

that sounds great, but some people might feel left out.
I would say that feeling left out would be a good thing, it would encourage the students to read up on the rules. It is not like you are picking 50% of your students based on how TALL they are, you are saying, "You guys read the rules and NOW you are certified to do X"
__________________




.
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 11:00
Jessica Boucher Jessica Boucher is offline
FIRST Historian
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Jamaica Plain, MA
Posts: 2,090
Jessica Boucher has a reputation beyond reputeJessica Boucher has a reputation beyond reputeJessica Boucher has a reputation beyond reputeJessica Boucher has a reputation beyond reputeJessica Boucher has a reputation beyond reputeJessica Boucher has a reputation beyond reputeJessica Boucher has a reputation beyond reputeJessica Boucher has a reputation beyond reputeJessica Boucher has a reputation beyond reputeJessica Boucher has a reputation beyond reputeJessica Boucher has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

There are many teams who test their students, I am sure some of them wouldn't mind sharing an old test.

I've found that nothing better says "hey, you better read this" than flourescent paper. Although an entire manual of bright pink paper is overkill - use sparingly.
__________________
jessicaboucher.com
FRC Alum, Mentor, Volunteer, lots of things.
Championship Volunteer of the Year, 2016
Advisor, NE FIRST
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 12:17
Tom Line's Avatar
Tom Line Tom Line is offline
Raptors can't turn doorknobs.
FRC #1718 (The Fighting Pi)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Armada, Michigan
Posts: 2,519
Tom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond reputeTom Line has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

Our team grew considerably this year. It doubled in size from 15 to 30.

With only a couple full time mentors, it's difficult to watch everything at once.

Therefore, I created a "competence matrix". Every single tool or trade is listed. Wiring, programming, etc. In order for any student to use them, they have to have proved prior competence - and that includes understanding info from the manual. This was my attempt at improving safety a bit.

They have to be certified by another certified user. We'll probably go a step further next year and create an actual test for each item.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 12:54
KathieK's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
KathieK KathieK is offline
Sometimes FIRST makes my head hurt!
no team
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Rockville, CT
Posts: 3,681
KathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to KathieK
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

We used to have a test of the game rules prior to competing.
We also tested team members' knowledge of the team itself after spending many weeks doing teambuilding sessions... it was fun to see who could answer all the questions correctly.
__________________
Check out my 2016 Conference presentation, Dumpster Diving: How to Get Stuff for Your Team for Free or at Little Cost
www.usfirst.org | www.nefirst.org | www.firstnemo.org
Helping mentors since 2004
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 17:00
Jeff Pahl's Avatar
Jeff Pahl Jeff Pahl is offline
likes to look at shiny things...
FRC #5148 (New Berlin Blitz)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Waukesha, WI
Posts: 344
Jeff Pahl has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Pahl has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Pahl has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Pahl has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Pahl has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Pahl has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Pahl has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Pahl has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Pahl has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Pahl has a reputation beyond reputeJeff Pahl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

We had some parental pushback against a test. I will not go into my opinions or any other further discussion of why...

One of the first things I do to try and cut down on the "there's to much to read" argument, is to bring a copy of the specification documents for whatever I happen to be working on at work when the kick-off happens each year. I build spaceflight hardware, so the documentation I'm working from usually runs to well in excess of 500+ pages. I set that down next to the current rules, and explain that if the team members are really interested in going into engineering or technology fields, they may as well get used to having to read the requirements. And that what they have to read is really not all that bad.

I also explain that the three most common things they will hear me say for the next 6 weeks are:
1) Is your homework done?
2) How much does that weigh?
3) It's in the rules

In general, I try not to let team members that have not read the rules get too far down the wrong path, but after once or twice when they find out that the last several hours of their work is no good because they didn't read the rules, they get the idea that they really should read them.

As an inspector, it's pretty easy for me to tell when I look at a robot or talk to team members if they have read the rules or not. My favorite is when they only read "the important ones". Apparently the ones concerning the Bill of Material, team numbers, sponsor logos, and the use of tape are often not considered to fall into that category At least those are easy to fix at the regional, it's pretty depressing to have to tell a team they have to do a major redesign or rewire the whole robot on Thursday because they didn't read all the rules.

-Jeff
Lead Inspector, 10,000 Lakes Regional
__________________
Team 5148 - 2014 Wisconsin Regional Rookie All-Stars!!

Mentor: 1379: 2004-2008 / 2530: 2008-2013 / 2861: 2009 / 5148: 2014-??
Lead Robot Inspector: 10,000 Lakes '09 - '11 / Lake Superior '11-'12 / Northern Lights '13, '15 - '16 / Championship '09 - '12, '14 - '15
Attending/Inspecting 2017: TBD, Wisconsin, STL Championship

"Sometimes the questions are complicated and the answers are simple" -Dr. Seuss
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 17:14
Cynette Cynette is offline
Worry is a poor use of Imagination
AKA: Cynette Cavaliere
FRC #1511 (Rolling Thunder)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Penfield,NY
Posts: 1,515
Cynette has a reputation beyond reputeCynette has a reputation beyond reputeCynette has a reputation beyond reputeCynette has a reputation beyond reputeCynette has a reputation beyond reputeCynette has a reputation beyond reputeCynette has a reputation beyond reputeCynette has a reputation beyond reputeCynette has a reputation beyond reputeCynette has a reputation beyond reputeCynette has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via ICQ to Cynette Send a message via AIM to Cynette
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

As a team, in small groups, we read the bulk of the manual aloud to one another (yes, really!) in the workshop we hold immediately after the game is released. In the small groups we discuss what we have read until we know that we have a general understanding of what was read.

We also have a game test that is required to attain different levels of scoring based on desire to travel, be on the drive team, be in the pit crew, etc. The students are allowed to test and retest until they have obtained the score they wanted to achieve or we reach the final deadline for travel selection. Testers are offered testing support services in the same way that they are offered academic support services in their classrooms.
__________________
Cynette
The best angle from which to approach any problem is the TRYangle
--Chinese Fortune Cookie
Rolling Thunder, Team 1511: The Thunder just keeps getting louder!

Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 17:43
Nin_estarSaerah's Avatar
Nin_estarSaerah Nin_estarSaerah is offline
That's Madam President, actually
AKA: Sarah
FRC #1539 (Blue Eagle Robotics)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Clover, South Carolina
Posts: 131
Nin_estarSaerah is just really niceNin_estarSaerah is just really niceNin_estarSaerah is just really niceNin_estarSaerah is just really niceNin_estarSaerah is just really nice
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

As a student leader, I'm having the same problem, to an even larger degree. Last year I worked with our VEX team and wrote a short synopsis, about a page and a half, on GP, FIRST, the game, and the rules. Just what I considered the basis of what a team member ought to know, and would want to know. Some of the other student leaders and I made a test, and it seemed that most of the students didn't have a clue what they were doing, and hadn't bothered to read the short page i had written, much less the manual. However, when we went to our mentor about preventing some of these members from going to competition, or at the very least, making sure they learned this before they went, we only received shallow promises.
I would say that a greater part of our team has no idea what gracious professionalism is, and nearly half have no idea why we can't put a chainsaw on our robot. Not only will they not read the rules, they don't even know why we have rules.
__________________
An inventor is a man who asks 'Why?' of the universe and lets nothing stand between the answer and his mind. -John Galt

Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 18:26
EricH's Avatar
Happy Birthday! EricH EricH is online now
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,783
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynette View Post
As a team, in small groups, we read the bulk of the manual aloud to one another (yes, really!) in the workshop we hold immediately after the game is released. In the small groups we discuss what we have read until we know that we have a general understanding of what was read.
Definitely a good idea.

[]You could also have them come on here and ask questions. Just let us know first so the very first response is, "Read the manual!" rather than the answer they want.[/]

Also, spend the first week of build looking over the rules, designing strategies within the rules, and generally dissecting the rules. Not only will this help with rules knowledge, it may also help give you a competitive strategy. Now, the catch: If someone proposes a strategy/device/design that is against the rules, they have to find the rule that outlaws it. (Give them the section--we aren't totally mean!) Or, they have to show that it doesn't violate the rules. I bet they'll learn pretty quickly-- if for no other reason than to save themselves from more reading!
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 18:50
DonRotolo's Avatar
DonRotolo DonRotolo is offline
Back to humble
FRC #0832
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 6,998
DonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricVanWyk View Post
One of my mentors once told me that "Everything is easy and makes sense, so long as you do it right the first time and don't screw it up." He was specifically speaking about RF, but I find it translates well to just about everything I do.
Doing it right (=correctly) and doing it the easiest successul way are often one and the same. Similarly, doing it incorrectly is often more difficult.

But on to the question: We make sure we - mentors, senior team members - communicate very clearly that it is fully expected that everyone read, understand and know the manual. I make sure I know the whole book, no kid can catch me unawares. Some kids figure they can dog it, like schoolwork, but it becomes pretty obvious who did and who didn't. I challenge every student on the rules, and they just love it when they can prove me wrong - not that I let them do that often...
__________________

I am N2IRZ - What's your callsign?
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-11-2008, 17:31
AdamHeard's Avatar
AdamHeard AdamHeard is offline
Lead Mentor
FRC #0973 (Greybots)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Atascadero
Posts: 5,506
AdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond reputeAdamHeard has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to AdamHeard
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

Quote:
Originally Posted by gorrilla View Post
as in the machining tools? or all the tools?

that sounds great, but some people might feel left out.
There's and easy fix for that; read the manual. If they want to be in that "group", it's not that hard for them to read it.
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-11-2008, 23:22
samir13k samir13k is offline
Registered User
AKA: Samir Shaikh
FRC #4329
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 281
samir13k has a brilliant futuresamir13k has a brilliant futuresamir13k has a brilliant futuresamir13k has a brilliant futuresamir13k has a brilliant futuresamir13k has a brilliant futuresamir13k has a brilliant futuresamir13k has a brilliant futuresamir13k has a brilliant futuresamir13k has a brilliant futuresamir13k has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to samir13k Send a message via MSN to samir13k
Re: "Instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing."

Quote:
Originally Posted by gorrilla View Post
as in the machining tools? or all the tools?

that sounds great, but some people might feel left out.
Actually 1501 started this today, its called our safety card program. Each machine has a card near it with the members name. Your name has to be punched before you are allowed to use it. Violators will be punished to the full extent of having to clean up the shop and vacuum. (till we find something worse...) In order to get certified to use the tool, you just have to tell a mentor that you want to get oriented, and they will teach you how to use it properly immediately.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Where Are "Chassis & Drive Train Instructions" Robeaux Kit & Additional Hardware 1 10-01-2006 16:17
Where Are "Chassis & Drive Train Instructions" Robeaux Technical Discussion 1 10-01-2006 16:17
Who are the "Pending Teams"? Travis Hoffman General Forum 16 03-11-2005 20:10
"rules" and secrecy. not everyone needs to know what goes do archiver 2001 1 23-06-2002 23:32


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:31.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi