Need for Aluminum Gears and Sprockets?

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by Nick E

I don't honestly see the wieght savings(I know how light it is, I'm just not sure the cost of them justifies the savings). Also, will these be annodized? Or will they be left raw? I know the 7075 is a heck of a lot stronger(automag bodies) than 6061, but is apparently much harder to annodize. This could icrease your cost some.

It will be anodized if wanted, upon request. We have some plans to open a team 1323 store and we have been talking to first about it. Just keep an eye open =).

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Nick E

I don't honestly see the wieght savings(I know how light it is, I'm just not sure the cost of them justifies the savings). Also, will these be annodized? Or will they be left raw? I know the 7075 is a heck of a lot stronger(automag bodies) than 6061, but is apparently much harder to annodize. This could icrease your cost some.

Any shop that specializes in anodizing and other painting/coating processes can do 7075 as easily and well as they do 6061.

Originally Posted by rc_cola1323

It will be anodized if wanted, upon request. We have some plans to open a team 1323 store and we have been talking to first about it. Just keep an eye open =).

Keep in mind that per the 2008 rules to meet the FIRST provided definition of "Vendor" a business must be in no way affiliated with a FIRST team.

[Dick Linn]

If you need medium to large 7075 sprockets, these folks claim to make them to order:

http://www.rebelgears.com/sprockets/chainsizes.html

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by rc_cola1323

It will be anodized if wanted, upon request. We have some plans to open a team 1323 store and we have been talking to first about it. Just keep an eye open =).

Like Cory said, be careful with the vendor requirements. I'd suggest having your supplier be the business of record here. You can always separately arrange for them to sponsor you with a cut of the profits on FIRST-related items (if that was the intended benefit of having a Team-1323-branded store).

And if your supplier chooses to sell to teams, it would be nice if you could make sure that they have a webpage with a gear and sprocket catalogue, including part schematics, material and surface treatment information and tolerances. Also, if you're planning to sell these during the 2009 season, teams will want to know what the lead time and shipping costs will be, in addition to the part costs—and they'd love to know these things as soon as possible (particularly before Christmas holidays begin).

And though I'm repeating my previous comments a little, I do want to stress that a catalogue would go a long way toward establishing these as COTS parts, as opposed to custom orders. (COTS parts aren't necessarily literally "off the shelf", or from stock; instead, they're effectively standard items with relatively short lead times. The distinction is useful, because teams must account for labour costs on the BOM for custom parts, but don't have to for COTS items.)

The faster you can arrange for this information to be posted, the quicker teams will be able to decide whether or not they're interested in doing business. For my part, I appreciate good information in order to make it easier to commit to using a new supplier for critical parts.

[James Tonthat]

Originally Posted by Hachiban VIII

I believe the Poofs and AM ([url="http://andymark.biz/am-0143.html"]...but I'd be wary of using aluminum gears. In my experience, rubbing aluminum on aluminum doesn't work too good...

Gears are designed so they don't rub on each other. They just press and roll on each other.

[Dick Linn]

What is the difference, rule-wise, between a COTS part and a "custom" part? Let's say I can order a sprocket from stock from somewhere for $15. Or I can get something made-to-order from another for-profit business for $30. Isn't it just a matter of accounting for the purchase cost?

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Dick Linn

What is the difference, rule-wise, between a COTS part and a "custom" part? Let's say I can order a sprocket from stock from somewhere for $15. Or I can get something made-to-order from another for-profit business for $30. Isn't it just a matter of accounting for the purchase cost?

My entirely uninformed guess is that it depends where you get it from.

If you bought it from a reseller who is just the middleman between the machine shop and yourself, I'd say you probably account for just the purchase cost of $30.

If you bought it from a machine shop that is selling gears to people (such as this scenario), you account for whatever the labor works out to when billed x hours at whatever the shop rate per hour is.

As far as I can remember the rules have never really specifically addressed this.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Dick Linn

What is the difference, rule-wise, between a COTS part and a "custom" part? Let's say I can order a sprocket from stock from somewhere for $15. Or I can get something made-to-order from another for-profit business for $30. Isn't it just a matter of accounting for the purchase cost?

You report the purchase price for a COTS item. For a custom part ("an item you pay someone else to make"), you report the fabricator's material cost (i.e. not the purchase price), plus the labour used to make it.* (So, strangely enough, because there's no requirement to account for the fabricator's profit and other miscellaneous overhead on the BOM, it might actually be advantageous to buy custom, because you might be able to report a lower price.)

Also, the vendor requirements are for COTS suppliers, not custom fabricators.

*FIRST confusingly uses a vendor in its custom parts example, but there's nothing stating that a vendor is the only legal source of custom parts. (That requirement wouldn't make sense, because the definition of vendor hinges upon all sorts of COTS things.)

[Dick Linn]

I thought the labor hours thing was to establish a fair value where a team might get someone to make an item for free (without participation in the actual fabrication) and only supply the material. I know in the distant past that some teams sponsored by large corporations with ample engineering and machining resources could make a $5,000. gear rack widget out of $100. worth of material, or some such. In a case like that, reporting the fair value of the services makes sense.

Some custom suppliers won't necessarily give you a cost breakdown. It is just quantity/price. Any other team should be able to get the same quantity/price breaks unless the person quoting was having a bad day, or the delivery time requirement was different.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Dick Linn

I thought the labor hours thing was to establish a fair value where a team might get someone to make an item for free (without participation in the actual fabrication) and only supply the material. I know in the distant past that some teams sponsored by large corporations with ample engineering and machining resources could make a $5,000. gear rack widget out of $100. worth of material, or some such. In a case like that, reporting the fair value of the services makes sense.

Dick,

The portion of your statement I bolded actually is not the way the rules have been written in the past-they say that unless the company who makes your part is a sponsor, you must account for the fair market value of their labor cost. If they are a sponsor, you account for nothing except the lowest pro-rated material cost.

[M. Mellott]

If you are paying a for-profit company to make you a custom part, wouldn't you think that the company is going to include all costs into the price they charge you (i.e. material, labor, "shop materials", equipment wear, special tooling, etc.)? If they don't charge you the full price, such as charging you only for the material or giving you a discount on the part, then I would think they fall in the catagory of a sponsor--either that or they're a company that doesn't want to stay in business for too long.