IFI Web Site

[ChuckDickerson]

Anyone notice that the IFI website got a makeover today and pretty much all traces of FIRST and the FIRST Store are now gone. A sad day indeed. The KitBot is now religated to the bottom right corner and you have to search around a bit to even find any of the old "Legacy Docs". I wouldn't be surprized if the KitBot is no longer going to be in the KoP but you can purchase one if you want.

[Jacob Paikoff]

You've always been able to purchase a KitBot, I think it will still be in the kop because there has to be an easy and cheap way for teams to build their robot, and most of the stuff that was in the FIRST store is now on AndyMark.

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by Mechkrunch

You've always been able to purchase a KitBot, ...

Yes, of course, but my point was more that the "new" IFI web site seems to remove practically all traces of FIRST. There used to be FIRST logos and references everywhere but no longer. I guess the FIRST/IFI "divorce" is now final. We did get 1 Victor and 2 Spikes in the KoP this year but other than that we will have to just wait and see. Prior to the introduction of the KitBot in 2005 there was no ready made/easy chassis solution for rookies or even vets that wanted to use it so FIRST is under no obligation to provide us anything. FIRST isn't really about "easy" anyway. As long as it is available for purchase at IFI for those that want to use it I wouldn't be at all surprized if FIRST leveraged their resources elsewhere and let those teams that want to use the KitBot buy it themselves. Especially since there are a lot of teams that never used the KitBot anyway. There definitely seems to be two KitBot camps if you search around CD: those that love it and those that think it is junk and aren't afraid to say so. Why should FIRST continue to give it to all those teams that think it is junk when they could save that money and give everyone something else instead?

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

Yes, of course, but my point was more that the "new" IFI web site seems to remove practically all traces of FIRST. There used to be FIRST logos and references everywhere but no longer. I guess the FIRST/IFI "divorce" is now final. We did get 1 Victor and 2 Spikes in the KoP this year but other than that we will have to just wait and see. Prior to the introduction of the KitBot in 2005 there was no ready made/easy chassis solution for rookies or even vets that wanted to use it so FIRST is under no obligation to provide us anything. FIRST isn't really about "easy" anyway. As long as it is available for purchase at IFI for those that want to use it I wouldn't be at all surprized if FIRST leveraged their resources elsewhere and let those teams that want to use the KitBot buy it themselves. Especially since there are a lot of teams that never used the KitBot anyway. There definitely seems to be two KitBot camps if you search around CD: those that love it and those that think it is junk and aren't afraid to say so. Why should FIRST continue to give it to all those teams that think it is junk when they could save that money and give everyone something else instead?

FIRST should know the kitbot is not junk. I would say anyone who is decent at design should be able to admit the kitbot is not junk (doesn't mean they have to use it).

As for the "FIRST/IFI Divorce"... Can't blame IFI for that, you can't expect them to keep FIRST logos up after what is happened (and they are now offering a very good vex based robotics competition that "competes" with FTC).

[Cory]

After all that has occurred in the situation between IFI and FIRST there is no possible way the IFI kitbot will be in the 2009 FRC KOP. It's just not happening.

I hope IFI plans to continue producing the kitbot so that it remains a COTS item and teams can use it in the future.

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by Cory

After all that has occurred in the situation between IFI and FIRST there is no possible way the IFI kitbot will be in the 2009 FRC KOP. It's just not happening.

I hope IFI plans to continue producing the kitbot so that it remains a COTS item and teams can use it in the future.

There is a major rumor that there will still be a kop chassis, may or may not be IFI though.

[keen101]

There really was no FIRST/IFI "divorce". You guy's are disillusioning yourselves.

sure, they don't nearly provide as much as they did before, but when Dean introduced the new system, he made it clear IFI was still going to kept around to be used. I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple years IFI provides something really useful to FRC.

not to mention, but i think the kitbot is still a standard KOP part.

Also, IFI has great traction wheels. There was no "divorce", things are just changing a little. It happens.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by keen101

Also, IFI has great traction wheels. There was no "divorce", things are just changing a little. It happens.

I think you'll find you're wrong. IFI and FIRST are done as partners. I don't think it could be any more obvious.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Cory

I think you'll find you're wrong. IFI and FIRST are done as partners. I don't think it could be any more obvious.

Cory, I don't see that. Maybe for FTC/VRC and the new control system, but I seem to recall earlier discussion here where Dave said that that wasn't true.

If you have access to something the rest of us don't, and you are allowed to share it, I might suggest you share it. (If you aren't, say it exists and that'll have to suffice.)

Either that, or enlighten me as to what is so obvious.

[Stephen Kowski]

Originally Posted by EricH

Cory, I don't see that. Maybe for FTC/VRC and the new control system, but I seem to recall earlier discussion here where Dave said that that wasn't true.

If you have access to something the rest of us don't, and you are allowed to share it, I might suggest you share it. (If you aren't, say it exists and that'll have to suffice.)

Either that, or enlighten me as to what is so obvious.

Sometimes if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck....I doubt Cory or anyone would think it responsible to put information like that on a forum. Believe what you want, but I don't think this discussion is headed down a productive path.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Stephen Kowski

Sometimes if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck....I doubt Cory or anyone would think it responsible to put information like that on a forum. Believe what you want, but I don't think this discussion is headed down a productive path.

And sometimes, it's a duck hunter and his decoys.

I will point out one thing: I never said to do so publicly.

You're right, this isn't going down a good path.

[JVN]

I don't know the whole story, but I do want to emphasize one thing:
Everyone at IFI believes very strongly in the mission of FIRST. This commitment can be seen through our continued support of the local Greenville HS robotics team. There are at least 30 students who are extremely excited for the upcoming kickoff and thankful that our executives are passionate about their future.

[ChuckDickerson]

I don’t pretend to KNOW any of the behind the scenes dealings between FIRST and IFI or any other supplier. What I have “heard” and “pieced together” is that IFI was somewhat blindsided about the new FRC controller and the FTC platform. I was lead to believe that IFI heard about it just like everyone else. Of course FIRST has the right to choose or drop any supplier they want at any time for whatever reason they want, however, if it is true that FIRST didn’t bother to clue IFI in I might be inclined to consider that a bit un-GP. I don’t think Innovation First is primarily in business to make robotics parts for FIRST teams. They make their money on rack systems, etc. They have however, been a long time supporter of FIRST because they can and believe in the goals and mission of FIRST. They probably don’t make much if anything off of FIRST and the teams they support but I am sure they have more than a trivial manufacturing investment in equipment and time to produce FIRST specific stuff whether it is control systems or chassis parts or wheels. Did FIRST throw IFI a bone after all these years of loyal support by including a Victor and a couple of Spikes in the KoP this year? I don’t know. Will we be getting additional Victors and Spikes in January? I don’t know but I doubt it. I want to think and hope that I have all of my assumptions wrong and that what I have “heard” is just rumor not fact. Whatever the truth is I can understand IFI might be a bit miffed and thus is one of the reasons they have gone out and started their own VEX competition to compete with FTC. Of course the Victors are being phased out for the newer/better/fancier/larger/heavier Jaguars but I find it unusual that after all these years of getting 4 Spikes in the KoP we only got 2 this year. Sure, we won’t need them to operate pneumatic solenoids but in the past we have had plenty of motors that we could easily run on a 20A Spike that didn’t need variable speed control. Come January we will all know if the KitBot is in the KoP or if it has been replaced with something new and better or nothing at all. As they say, time will tell, but if someone really knows the facts between the IFI/FIRST “divorce” please share. I truly hope I have it all wrong. As for this thread not going down a productive path I didn’t mean to stir up a hornets nest, however, I also think it isn’t always counter productive to go against the tide sort of speak. I now fear this thread might turn into one of those “Never say anything negative about FIRST at all costs” threads and if it degrades to that level hopefully some moderator will just step in a close it.

[Stephen Kowski]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

I now fear this thread might turn into one of those “Never say anything negative about FIRST at all costs” threads and if it degrades to that level hopefully some moderator will just step in a close it.

Just to clarify my intent is/was not to turn it to establish "a never say a critical word to FIRST" attitude. My point is.....its over, I have a NI cRIO on my desk at work....I mean it is just not something that we can do anything about.

What's done is done and I think it is best to say a huge thanks to IFI (they are great ppl) instead of talk about what may or may not have happened or who may or may not have said what. I wasn't in any of these discussions and I imagine most of the people on this thread weren't either so for us to make assumptions or look back to attempt to analyze is a futile effort that most likely will not do anything to move the community to a positive, forward thinking attitude.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Stephen Kowski

Just to clarify my intent is/was not to turn it to establish "a never say a critical word to FIRST" attitude. My point is.....its over, I have a NI cRIO on my desk at work....I mean it is just not something that we can do anything about.

What's done is done and I think it is best to say a huge thanks to IFI (they are great ppl) instead of talk about what may or may not have happened or who may or may not have said what. I wasn't in any of these discussions and I imagine most of the people on this thread weren't either so for us to make assumptions or look back to attempt to analyze is a futile effort that most likely will not do anything to move the community to a positive, forward thinking attitude.

Definitely correct on both counts. IFI went above and beyond, and I wish them the best of success in their future endeavors.