IFI Web Site

[JVN]

I don't know the whole story, but I do want to emphasize one thing:
Everyone at IFI believes very strongly in the mission of FIRST. This commitment can be seen through our continued support of the local Greenville HS robotics team. There are at least 30 students who are extremely excited for the upcoming kickoff and thankful that our executives are passionate about their future.

[ChuckDickerson]

I don’t pretend to KNOW any of the behind the scenes dealings between FIRST and IFI or any other supplier. What I have “heard” and “pieced together” is that IFI was somewhat blindsided about the new FRC controller and the FTC platform. I was lead to believe that IFI heard about it just like everyone else. Of course FIRST has the right to choose or drop any supplier they want at any time for whatever reason they want, however, if it is true that FIRST didn’t bother to clue IFI in I might be inclined to consider that a bit un-GP. I don’t think Innovation First is primarily in business to make robotics parts for FIRST teams. They make their money on rack systems, etc. They have however, been a long time supporter of FIRST because they can and believe in the goals and mission of FIRST. They probably don’t make much if anything off of FIRST and the teams they support but I am sure they have more than a trivial manufacturing investment in equipment and time to produce FIRST specific stuff whether it is control systems or chassis parts or wheels. Did FIRST throw IFI a bone after all these years of loyal support by including a Victor and a couple of Spikes in the KoP this year? I don’t know. Will we be getting additional Victors and Spikes in January? I don’t know but I doubt it. I want to think and hope that I have all of my assumptions wrong and that what I have “heard” is just rumor not fact. Whatever the truth is I can understand IFI might be a bit miffed and thus is one of the reasons they have gone out and started their own VEX competition to compete with FTC. Of course the Victors are being phased out for the newer/better/fancier/larger/heavier Jaguars but I find it unusual that after all these years of getting 4 Spikes in the KoP we only got 2 this year. Sure, we won’t need them to operate pneumatic solenoids but in the past we have had plenty of motors that we could easily run on a 20A Spike that didn’t need variable speed control. Come January we will all know if the KitBot is in the KoP or if it has been replaced with something new and better or nothing at all. As they say, time will tell, but if someone really knows the facts between the IFI/FIRST “divorce” please share. I truly hope I have it all wrong. As for this thread not going down a productive path I didn’t mean to stir up a hornets nest, however, I also think it isn’t always counter productive to go against the tide sort of speak. I now fear this thread might turn into one of those “Never say anything negative about FIRST at all costs” threads and if it degrades to that level hopefully some moderator will just step in a close it.

[Stephen Kowski]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

I now fear this thread might turn into one of those “Never say anything negative about FIRST at all costs” threads and if it degrades to that level hopefully some moderator will just step in a close it.

Just to clarify my intent is/was not to turn it to establish "a never say a critical word to FIRST" attitude. My point is.....its over, I have a NI cRIO on my desk at work....I mean it is just not something that we can do anything about.

What's done is done and I think it is best to say a huge thanks to IFI (they are great ppl) instead of talk about what may or may not have happened or who may or may not have said what. I wasn't in any of these discussions and I imagine most of the people on this thread weren't either so for us to make assumptions or look back to attempt to analyze is a futile effort that most likely will not do anything to move the community to a positive, forward thinking attitude.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Stephen Kowski

Just to clarify my intent is/was not to turn it to establish "a never say a critical word to FIRST" attitude. My point is.....its over, I have a NI cRIO on my desk at work....I mean it is just not something that we can do anything about.

What's done is done and I think it is best to say a huge thanks to IFI (they are great ppl) instead of talk about what may or may not have happened or who may or may not have said what. I wasn't in any of these discussions and I imagine most of the people on this thread weren't either so for us to make assumptions or look back to attempt to analyze is a futile effort that most likely will not do anything to move the community to a positive, forward thinking attitude.

Definitely correct on both counts. IFI went above and beyond, and I wish them the best of success in their future endeavors.

[DonRotolo]

I don't think IFI is done with FIRST. Many of the IFI guys actually get enjoyment from being involved, I have witnessed this firsthand. JVN has stated his own enthusiasm. We have Victors and Spikes.

IFI's main business is not robotics, it is a business called "Rack Solutions", so surely they will focus upon their core business (as any good business does from time to time) and likely keep thinking of new ways to cooperate with FIRST.

I have nothing to back any of this up, it is pure speculation on my part, but business is business and fun is fun - and I see IFI people having fun and that makes me thing they're not just walking away from it all.

[SuperBK]

I too would like to thank IFI for their support of FIRST. While I will miss the IFI control system (and miss getting a new one each year), I am excited about the cRio. Howerver, the PIC programming learned using the IFI enables you to make a robot for a fraction of a cost of a cRio system.
Brian

[Jim E]

I enjoyed the PIC system IFI produced too.

Now I only have to convince the team to take those 4 controllers and design new robot systems that have a practical purpose to better society, rather than sit in a closet as a relic of past accomplishments.

I welcome the new cRIO system. It was time for an upgrade to the control system. As technology changes and improves, so must the tools we use to teach the HS youth what is available. By the time they finish college, technology will have jumped another 10 fold in efficiency.

If only automobile technology could keep pace with consumer/ industrial electronics....

[Eugene Fang]

Originally Posted by Jim E

If only automobile technology could keep pace with consumer/ industrial electronics....

As Bill Gates said, "If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1000 MPG."

[Jonathan Norris]

From the actions of FIRST over the last couple years, it looks to me like FIRST decided it was done with IFI. I have a funny feeling that IFI was blindsided by some of the actions of FIRST over the last couple years. IFI is a great company and a big reason why FIRST has grown to where it is right now, but I get the feeling someone at FIRST decided it was time to move on.

[keen101]

but I get the feeling someone at FIRST decided it was time to move on.

well, sure. I think it's great that FIRST is evolving. I think it was necessary to move to a better controller. While i liked IFI, i did not like how proprietary there stuff was.

with the new cRIO a lot of stuff is Open Source. That in itself i think will help shape FIRST in a good way.

But, even though we have a new control system, that doesn't mean IFI is out. The way i see it, is that IFI might just be taking a breather and could provide something in the KOP in a couple years. I don't think they will provide as much as they did before, but that too could be a good thing.

Keyword, might. I really don't know for sure, but i don't think you are right in assuming the worst. You really should never assume anything.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by keen101

While i liked IFI, i did not like how proprietary there stuff was. with the new cRIO a lot of stuff is Open Source. That in itself i think will help shape FIRST in a good way.

Can you explain this more? I saw Dean's video too where he claimed "everything is open source" but that doesn't seem to be the case to me. Which part of the new system to you have the source code to that wasn't available in the IFI version? Or, alternately, which part of the IFI system did you want the source code for that you couldn't get that is now available with the new system?

[Mike Soukup]

Originally Posted by keen101

well, sure. I think it's great that FIRST is evolving. I think it was necessary to move to a better controller. While i liked IFI, i did not like how proprietary there stuff was.

with the new cRIO a lot of stuff is Open Source. That in itself i think will help shape FIRST in a good way.

Is VxWorks, the operating system that the cRIO uses, open source? Nope. Does LabView use an open source compiler? Nope. Does the C++ development environment that we're using come with a license that allows us to run it after 2010? Nope. The only thing that is open source is the WPI library.

The new controller has its benefits, but openness isn't one of them.

[keen101]

The new controller has its benefits, but openness isn't one of them.

well, yeah you got me there. I guess, i meant it's moving in a direction i think is good. At the same time it could be moving in a more expensive direction which may or may not be bad as well. Hard to tell i guess. Hopefully in the future there will be a more open system available.

On the other hand... a lot of teams seem to be willing to share their code. I didn't see a lot of code sharing before from teams.


I think I'm done with this discussion. It is going nowhere fast. My comments have been my opinion. You can decide to agree with them or not. I don't care.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Pikat

As Bill Gates said, "If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1000 MPG."

But, if Microsoft built cars:

Every time they repainted the lines on the road, you'd have to buy a new car.
Occasionally your car would just die on the highway for no reason. Accept this, restart and drive on.

Occasionally, executing a maneuver would cause the car to stop and fail to restart. You'd have to re-install the engine. For some strange reason, you'd just accept this too.

You could only have one person in the car at a time, unless you bought "Car 95" or "Car NT". But then you'd have to buy more seats.

Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was twice as reliable, five times as fast, twice as easy to drive - but it would only run on five percent of the roads.

The oil, engine, gas and alternator warning lights would be replaced with a single "General Car Fault" light.

People would get excited about "new" features in Microsoft cars, forgetting completely that they had been available in other cars for years.

We'd all have to switch to Microsoft gas and auto fluids.

New seats would force everyone to have the same size butt.

The airbag system would say, "Are you sure?" before going off.

If you were involved in a crash, you would have no idea what happened.

Microsoft wouldn't build their own engines, but form a cartel with their engine suppliers. The engine would be a side-valve design so you could still use Model T Ford parts on it.

Microsoft cars would have a special radio/cassette player which would only be able to listen to Microsoft FM and play Microsoft cassettes.

Microsoft would do well, because even though they don't own any roads, all road manufacturers would give away Microsoft cars for free!

If you couldn't afford to buy a new car, you could borrow your friend's and copy it.

Whenever you bought a car, you would have to reorganize the ignition a few days until it worked.

You would need an upgrade to run cars on a highway next to each other.

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

But, if Microsoft built cars:

could we stay on subject and not enter into yet ANOTHER MS vs Mac "discussion?"