OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events

[Bongle]

For getting approximate decibel levels in a pinch, there are a few decibel-meter apps for the iPhone. I don't know how accurate they are, though.

[MegaSparks]

Team 2062 monitored and posted the sound levels at St. Louis, Milwaukee and the Championship events as part of our safety program. Yes, the sound levels were loud in the pits and in the stands. We actually monitored this on an ongoing basis during those events. In response to this we passed out free ear plugs from our pit area.
OSHA has stated that event related sound pressure levels (like FIRST events) are not governed by their organization, they do post guidelines as referenced earlier in this thread. The guidelines we use as a team to inform the other participants of the potential hazard and we make available, through our coporate sponsors, mitigation of this potential hazard.

[OScubed]

So far most of the complaints that were registered in this thread had to do with 2 things:

1) On-field noise so loud team members and team coaches couldn't hear each other.

OR (more frequently)

2) The giant speakers aimed at audiences caused the sound level to be too loud to hear each other talk, hear team cheers, and caused significant ringing and temporary loss of hearing in the ears for those who spent long hours in the stands.

Although it's wonderful of extech to volunteer equipment to monitor it, and we realize OSHA doesn't publish standards for events , this is not really just an event. Regionals and nationals last for more than 8 hours for several days in a row. This represents a significant cumulative decible level (which is what OSHA normally measures - as opposed to momentary levels). It's how long and at what sustained volume.

This needs to be addressed at the top levels by FIRST safety officials who should release guidelines both for measuring the levels and for enforcing the volume restrictions at both national and regional events. They monitor and make rules on every other aspect of safety, this should be no different.

[MegaSparks]

We have found noise to be an issue in the past and we as a team have expanded our safety program to address this issue and the potential long term affects. If this is an issue for your team earplugs are available. Monitoring equipment does not solve this issue but only brings is to light. Proper personal protective equipment needs to be available then to address this issue. Should FIRST take action to resolve this issue? Yes, I believe they should, but then to what level? The OSHA guidelines protect only the majority of the population. People could still have issues with this mandated level and then FIRST would be open to possible hearing loss claims because events were at or below limits. It would be nice if the events would be considerate of those people in the audience and turn the volume levels down voluntarily, but until then we, the teams, need to take the steps to mitigate the potential hazard. We need to work together to push for improvements and not mandates. FIRST has a good record of safety.
I would disagree with the last statement you made that FIRST monitors and makes rules on all other aspects of safety. FIRST leaves much of this to the teams to build their own safety program. Noise level monitoring and protection should be an active part of an all-encompassing safety program.

[Dan2081]

Not bring immature or anything, but what is wrong with noise?

I Have only been in First for a year, but what I gathered was that we are trying to make science and math (in the form of competition) a rival of professional sports. Being energetic, while it may be noisy, is part of the game. Without cheering, there would be no spirit to the competition.

I can see that you're concerned with safety, but can it really be that bad? What about the people who do go to sports games? Should we be stting noise levels for NFL and MLB too?

This noise "problem" doesn't need to be addressed at all.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Dan2081

Not bring immature or anything, but what is wrong with noise?

I Have only been in First for a year, but what I gathered was that we are trying to make science and math (in the form of competition) a rival of professional sports. Being energetic, while it may be noisy, is part of the game. Without cheering, there would be no spirit to the competition.

I can see that you're concerned with safety, but can it really be that bad? What about the people who do go to sports games? Should we be stting noise levels for NFL and MLB too?

This noise "problem" doesn't need to be addressed at all.

It's not the noise that's the problem, it's the volume. Rock concert volumes can destroy hearing. While FRC competitions are not that loud, they are in some cases exceeding OSHA guidelines/rules, and over three days, there can easily be a price to pay.

You haven't been on the floor, have you? It's LOUD down there, loud enough that without the crowd noise, you still can't hear someone next to you without them raising their voice (or using your radio, if you are so lucky as to have one).

It might or might not be an issue, but what I think they're trying to do is monitor the noise so that the extent of the damage can be determined/DJs can be asked to turn the volume down a bit/FIRST can be asked to do that across the board.

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by Dan2081

Not bring immature or anything, but what is wrong with noise?

I Have only been in First for a year, but what I gathered was that we are trying to make science and math (in the form of competition) a rival of professional sports. Being energetic, while it may be noisy, is part of the game. Without cheering, there would be no spirit to the competition.

I can see that you're concerned with safety, but can it really be that bad? What about the people who do go to sports games? Should we be stting noise levels for NFL and MLB too?

This noise "problem" doesn't need to be addressed at all.

Woah, slow down, I know you are new to CD but do not say someone is wrong, say you have a different opinion.

Second, people can go deaf from load sounds and there is a diesease where people are sensitive to sound, I believe it is called sensory precessing diesease. The should be addressed because of the safety issues and to make the competition comfortable for everyone. The same goes for football, baseball, basketball and soccer.

edit: I agree with what Eric said.

[synth3tk]

Originally Posted by Dan2081

This noise "problem" doesn't need to be addressed at all.

Maybe your regional isn't as bad as others, but at Buckeye last season, we couldn't hear each other yelling while we were in queue. Our clothes were shaking from the sound waves being emitted from the floor speaker. We even had to talk pretty loud to hear each other while in the stands. Yet you go to the pit area, and have to basically work silently in order to hear the pit announcements.

I understand that some semi-loud, energetic music helps make the event. But safety (coming from a safety captain) must always be first/FIRST priority. I don't know about you, but I'd like to leave the three-day event with my hearing still intact, thank you very much.

Although there's nothing wrong with noise itself, there is such thing as too much noise. Please don't make statements that something like this, which is clearly a safety issue, should not be "addressed at all".

Thanks.

EDIT: I agree with Alex and Eric above.

[Greg Needel]

I have been watching this thread for a while now and can't hold back my opinion. I think you guys are taking this way to far. First of all OSHA stands for Occupational Safety and Health Administration, which is primarily focused with safety levels at work. I don't see why, besides the fact that they have a sound standard, that they would be relevant.

The next thing I propose is that FIRST events are supposed to be loud. They are in the same domain as rock concerts and sporting events. I highly doubt any of you go to a basketball game and complain about it being too loud. Yet alone petition the NBA to make the music softer.

One of the things that makes FIRST events fun is the music and excitement and overwhelming feeling at the events. If we had competitions in a quiet environment like a chess tournament would people still want to go and watch?

The way I see it is a better approach if you are worried about the sound is to just bring earplugs. Or if you want to promote safety hand out earplugs. But going to the extent to try and get a deal on equipment to measure the sound levels seems excessive to me.

What ever happened to "If it's too loud then you are too old"

[TKM.368]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

The next thing I propose is that FIRST events are supposed to be loud. They are in the same domain as rock concerts and sporting events. I highly doubt any of you go to a basketball game and complain about it being too loud. Yet alone petition the NBA to make the music softer.

How long do NBA games last as compared to an FRC event?

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

The way I see it is a better approach if you are worried about the sound is to just bring earplugs.

Sorry, we just assumed when we went to Championships that we wouldn't be physically assaulted for three straight days.

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

What ever happened to "If it's too loud then you are too old"

Making our students too old too fast by that mentality.

Coming and going in and out of the arena is not so bad, but we could only take a handful to Atlanta and some were dedicated solely to scouting meaning they had to sit in the stands throughout. We will definitely be taking earplugs next time...

[Bongle]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

I have been watching this thread for a while now and can't hold back my opinion. I think you guys are taking this way to far. First of all OSHA stands for Occupational Safety and Health Administration, which is primarily focused with safety levels at work. I don't see why, besides the fact that they have a sound standard, that they would be relevant.

The next thing I propose is that FIRST events are supposed to be loud. They are in the same domain as rock concerts and sporting events. I highly doubt any of you go to a basketball game and complain about it being too loud. Yet alone petition the NBA to make the music softer.

One of the things that makes FIRST events fun is the music and excitement and overwhelming feeling at the events. If we had competitions in a quiet environment like a chess tournament would people still want to go and watch?

The way I see it is a better approach if you are worried about the sound is to just bring earplugs. Or if you want to promote safety hand out earplugs. But going to the extent to try and get a deal on equipment to measure the sound levels seems excessive to me.

What ever happened to "If it's too loud then you are too old"

I think comparing a FRC event to a rock concert or sporting event is not a good comparison. Although the goal is to be like those events in terms of excitement, you're never going to fit a regional into the 2 hours of a concert or basketball game. A dangerously loud environment for 3 days straight is much harder on the ears than that same environment for just a few hours.

Mostly I care about the pit volume level. I'm totally fine with the field area being loud, but in the pits, I want to be able to communicate with the rest of my team without losing my voice and my hearing. Wearing earplugs isn't an ideal solution because they can make it difficult to communicate within the pits.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Bongle

Mostly I care about the pit volume level. I'm totally fine with the field area being loud, but in the pits, I want to be able to communicate with the rest of my team without losing my voice and my hearing. Wearing earplugs isn't an ideal solution because they can make it difficult to communicate within the pits.

I like it when it's loud on the field. However, 1276 require students to bring a parent or otherwise responsible 18+ year old, because our mentors shouldn't have to be chaperones outside of the pit. So, we have a bunch of parents who spend two or three days sitting in those stands, and while they enjoy the excitement, they'd like to leave on Saturday and have their hearing intact. I bet some other teams operate in a similar manner, and some parents/grandparents/other family members come to watch their kids/grandkids/etc. compete. The extreme loudness of the event will turn them off. And what about the community groups that bring kids to watch us compete (girl scouts, cub scouts, school outings etc.)? We don't want to turn them off either. I think it's entirely reasonable that we can have our fun, yet not scare these people away.

[synth3tk]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

What ever happened to "If it's too loud then you are too old"

I'm 19, hardly "too old".

I work the sound equipment at my church, which means occasionally going down to the band area during songs. It's not nearly the level that FIRST events are at, but it's loud. Now I don't have to subject myself to this for three days over periods of 6 hours or so. If I were, I'm sure I'd have to make a case to the church/band leaders to bring down the noise. But because it's less than 2-hours worth of noise once a week, I can take the beating.

If I go to an Indians game: #1, they don't have huge 6-feet speakers next to the cheese pretzel concession stand. #2, I'm not subjected to nearly the same amount of noise that I do if I'm sitting in the stands of a FIRST event.

As mentioned multiple times earlier in this thread, not every event has this sound problem, so to others, this may seem like it's being taken overboard. There are things like acoustics and amount of space and whatnot to take into consideration at each venue, and because of that, we can't expect the same sound levels to work everywhere.

Now maybe trying to compare this to OSHA standards won't work because this is not a work place per se, but I really think this is the same concept. We want a safe "workplace" so that we can all go home in the same physical condition (maybe better due to the excitement and energy) that we came with. I play games, so I like my hearing.

I really don't think this is being blown out of proportion at all.

[MegaSparks]

We need to work together to improve the situation. I agree that FIRST is trying to make the experience of science and technology the equivalent energy rush as of say a good basketball or football game. Yes, there is loud noise at both of these and yes, old people, like me, go to them. I know it is going to be loud at a FIRST event as it is focused on the kids and making it an experience for the kids. I wear ear plugs. I am in the pits and the stands and have been on the field. I scouted all three competitions we were in last year.
There are ways to change what we have for the better. I know that lowering the sound levels a bit will not please everyone. Some will think it is not enough yet others will think it is too much. It would be nice to be heard without yelling, but to what degree do we want to take this? Be careful what you ask FIRST for, because what you get, you may not want.
Hearing protection needs to be a part of every teams safety program. The team needs to understand the risks and use proper risk mitigation. Start at home, bring proper protection and then work with the safety officials to help with the entire picture. Make this a growth opportunity for your team and team safety. Our team has.

[N7UJJ]

Pit Announcements:

Pit admin should keep the audio at moderate levels AND transmit on a low power FM broadcast band transmitter. That way, pits in an especially "hard to hear the pit announcement" area can tune an FM radio (or personal MP3 FM radio) to the pit radio freq and adjust their local volume.