OSHA Noise Standards and FIRST Events

[Tom Line]

Actually, if you do a little research, you'll find that people should not be subjected to impulses above 100 dB. 85 dB is the loudest that you can be subjected to for any period of time. This includes workers at rock band concerts. You'll also find a large number of musicians who have hearing issues because of their live performances.

I've never experienced this noise level at a First Event. I expect them to be loud. I expect people to be screaming and crazy for their team.

I think, just like in anything else, the folks involved in this should take care of themselves. If you are concerned, take earplugs. If you'd like to inform others, then have your safety teams post signs.

I agree that setting up monitoring, try to enforce the limits, and other actions that have been suggested are over-the-top. Perhaps, as someone else mentioned, this is just particular regionals - in which case someone needs to discuss it with them.

I understand the opposing argument, that we need to be "safe". However I am one of those people who think that we have taken "safe" WAY too far, and thrown out personal responsibility in the process. Just my .02

[ebarker]

1) FIRST controls the production company that runs the audio. This sound level is under their control, not the teams.

2) I have seen regionals that were about right, and some that were out of control.

3) And you absolutely WILL lose potential sponsors and mentors if you let the sound level get out of control.

This isn't a difficult subject. Production companies that know how to do this well will not have a problem getting it done. It is simply a matter of FIRST writing the rules and enforcing it.

[synth3tk]

I will most definitely be getting some earplugs together for myself and to hand out. BUT, I don't think trying to protect the public's ear drums are "over-the-top" or extreme in any sense . Yes, I may sound like a crazed maniac, and you're welcome to think that. But trying to stop others who feel this issue is a hazard is not really a great thing to do, and sends out he message that if you find something that's wrong or out-of-place, you shouldn't try to fix the solution, you should just cover it up and leave it alone.

Not a good message at all.

[Bongle]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

I understand the opposing argument, that we need to be "safe". However I am one of those people who think that we have taken "safe" WAY too far, and thrown out personal responsibility in the process. Just my .02

Personal responsibility is a fantastic concept, but it requires people to be able to make informed decisions. Many of the people attending a FIRST event will be children (FLL, scouts, girl guides, etc), rookie teams, sponsors, or parents, who may not know (and wouldn't even expect) that a regional will be as loud as some are. Without advance knowledge that an event is loud, people cannot make informed decisions.

So saying "protect yourself, bring earplugs" is fine, there may be people who would never expect they'd need earplugs at "that robot thing I'm going to this afternoon".

However, I fully agree with your opinion that some aspects of safety have gotten out of hand at regionals and in some cases are actually unsafe.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Bongle

However, I fully agree with your opinion that some aspects of safety have gotten out of hand at regionals and in some cases are actually unsafe.

Inquiring minds want to know - what aspects are out of hand ? specific examples ?

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by ebarker

3) And you absolutely WILL lose potential sponsors and mentors if you let the sound level get out of control.

I don't really see this happening...

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

I don't really see this happening...

past tense. It has ALREADY happened !!

[gblake]

May I run a laser show in our pit display if it only slightly damages the eyes of people who see it? If folks don't like it they can bring protective goggles next season. It will be really exciting to watch and everyone who sees the show will become really excited about robotics.

May I design a robot that occasionally flings chunks of lightweight material into the audience? The chunks will have low mass and high volume, and will only bruise people who forget to catch them (no broken bones or bits going into eyes). If anyone doesn't like catching them barehanded or is just too lame/boring to enjoy catching them, they can either wear a baseball glove, or a use a sturdy umbrella or some other shield. Don't worry about small children or infants - their parents are responsible for them.

May I put some electronics on my robot that might interfere with pacemakers in the first 20 rows of the audience? I'll put up a warning sign and I'll give out free Faraday cage shielding to any geezers who want to sit close to the field (or visit the pits) but who weren't smart enough to think ahead and bring their own shielding.

Oh, one last request ... May I turn up the event's "music" so loud that the volunteers around the field and the audience in the stands have their hearing damaged (just a little bit)? Saturday PM, Mr. Ross will leave the tournament with his ears ringing/damaged and his vocal cords shot; but if he spends a full day recovering, he has at least a 50/50 chance of not developing a full blown case of laryngitis. Don't those odds sound pretty good if some extra students get inspired?

Do I make my point? Turn the music down to safe levels. If it is loud enough to cause harm, it is too loud. The only question is setting the right level, not whether harmfully loud music is OK.

Blake

[synth3tk]

Well-put.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

To bring this around again and introduce some added info...
1. Check out http://www.kellrobotics.org/files/Sound_2008.pdf where there is some data taken during the Championship. Please note the 6-8dB average to peak readings. This is about the amount of compression audio mixers employee to keep the average level sounding loud.
2. Long exposure to high level sound casues temporary threshold shift. (i.e. loud today doesn't sound as loud as yesterday)
3. OHSHA standards look at weighted (filtered) data averaged over time (8hr/day, 5 day week). They recognize 85dBA as loud and 90dBA as harmful repetitive exposure requiring hearing protection.
4. Noise above certain levels causes permanent damage. i.e. A nerve is damaged beyond repair or a sensor will give false data forever (ringing).
5. In the real world, speaker systems do not cover a sound field with uniform sound level. Those in direct line with the front of the speaker array usually will experience the highest sound level. Sound designers on occassion will use "fill" speakers to cover a difficult area like that directly beneath the main array.
6. Speakers on the floor are usually sub woofers which reproduce sound below the frequency response of the A weighting filter and are therefore not included in the data. They move a lot of air and do seem to move clothing when standing nearby but do not contribute significantly to hearing loss at normal levels. They do allow you to "feel" the music though.
7. It is evident from the data, that levels jumped during cheering and matches.
I think it is evident that there is an issue with high levels during some parts of the day and average levels are on the borderline of needing hearing protection. That does require some action to be taken in my opinion. Overall levels could be reduced by a few dB and certainly levels could be reduced during those times that cheering takes place so as to not disrupt the overall feel of the competition but hearing is somewhat protected. For those who will spend a lot of time in the stands please encourage hearing protection of some kind during the day. McMaster Carr has a fine selection of disposable protectors. I keep part number 9159T5 headphone types for comfortable everyday/all day protection and 54725T32 disposable for short periods like camera and floor people during Soundstage tapings.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

OSHA stands for Occupational Safety and Health Administration, which is primarily focused with safety levels at work.

Yes, and many of the field personnel and working and therefore OSHA is directly relevant. This includes volunteers.

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

The way I see it is a better approach if you are worried about the sound is to just bring earplugs. Or if you want to promote safety hand out earplugs.

I do bring earplugs, and team 1676 does hand them out. I can't stand the volume without them, honestly

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

What ever happened to "If it's too loud then you are too old"

Sorry, this just sounds irresponsible. For a 3 hour concert, OK, but for a 3 day event, if it is too loud, then it is too loud.

The next steps would be for teams to carefully monitor sound levels and report their findings, be sure to use a decent instrument (cost about $100 or more) and take careful notes of the placement fo the sensor. Then we can compare notes to determine IF there really is a porbelm or not. If there is a problem, I am sure it can be managed.


Don

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[johnr]

Wow, this thread really hits home for me. I was in light construction for thirty years. Just power saws and airguns. Now i am 48 and wearing two hearing aids.Wish i knew then what i know now.
Lets say you really like robotics and you get lucky and join a team that goes to two regionals and nationals every year.Your brother is on the team so you get to tag along in 8th grade and you come back your first year of college. So that works out to 42 days of comps or 336 hours of noise. Add in working in shop and off season events. I would say getting some hearing damage is a good possiblity. Remember, just a little damage early in life can come back to bite you later. Protect your hearing just like you protect your eyes.

[synth3tk]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

6. Speakers on the floor are usually sub woofers which reproduce sound below the frequency response of the A weighting filter and are therefore not included in the data. They move a lot of air and do seem to move clothing when standing nearby but do not contribute significantly to hearing loss at normal levels. They do allow you to "feel" the music though.

Thanks for the clarification. If you say it's not going to bust my eardrums, I'll believe you.

Johnr, just about everyone I know that lost their hearing says the same thing. They wish they would've known back then what they do now. We've got thousands and thousands of students, not to mention the younger spectators or the older ones. Protecting them now will save a lot of hassle in their later years.

[MegaSparks]

If everyone on this thread takes the time to measure and record the sound levels at every event we are at this year like our team did last year. We can present a case to FIRST that the noise levels are indeed to loud at these events. Some key elements that have to be recorded to make the reading valid are:
1 – Calibration date and recalibration date on the measuring device.
2 – Placement of the device
3 – Time schedule for taking the reading (Once every hour on the hour or every 15 minutes). Readings can not just be taken at the loudest times. There has to be a plan in place and you have to stick to the plan.
4 – Record the serial number, model number and manufacturer of the device and the scale that is used for all readings.
5 – If there is training for the usage of the device this also has to be recorded as being taken by the person who is using the device.

If everyone takes action to record the findings we can present a case with data to FIRST. Maybe just the sight of sound measuring equipment at the events might cause some events to turn down the equipment.

[EricVanWyk]

After watching a few matches, I'll retreat for a bit to let the sound headache subside. I do wish I could stay longer.