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  #46   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-01-2009, 15:01
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy1718 View Post
This right here is what I hate about FIRST, elitism at its finest. All that this list is, is a few people who have forgotten what the point of FIRST is trying to force their opinions on everyone. Intentional or not the result is the same, you just made a lot of people feel like crap.

I ask that if something like this is to continue, everyone should have the opurtunity to vote once, perferably not for their own team either.

P.S.
If you look at my name and just tune out because of previous comments that you didn't like... well I won't go there, this is chiefdelphi things are taken the wrong way all the time.

I see your point, and respect your opinion, but I don't necessarily agree with it.

First of all, I don't think this can really make anyone feel bad. Teams earn recognition. I'm not saying teams that aren't on this list haven't earned recognition, but part of FIRST is performance and part of it is branding your team. The teams on this list have performed outstandingly in the past few years as well as years before that, and are being recognized for it. This gives all FIRST teams just one more thing to strive to be. We all look up to these great teams as well as teams that didn't make it on the list. As a future goal of my team, I would love to try to get my team onto this list.
As for "forcing opinions out of people," I'm sure people wouldn't have voted if they didn't think this was a good idea.

I think the ranking system is a great idea. It gives teams a chance to live up to their expectations and others a chance to prove themselves. I look forward to seeing how accurate it is.
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Unread 01-01-2009, 15:08
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Peshek View Post
I made a Google map after your suggestion, because I was actually very curious to see what it would turn out like. Here it is:
Top 25 Map

There is certainly a big cluster on the western coastal area of Lake Michigan and then another big cluster on the eastern side of Michigan border/ the Canadian area.

I believe 25 and 2056's locations are mixed up.
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Unread 01-01-2009, 15:51
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

I am honored that my team, 330 made the list in the first place. We try very hard to help other teams develop the resources and depth that we have managed to accumulate over the years.

I think that teams that are not on this list and want to be on future lists sit down with a local team that is and ask them about what they do and how they do it.

FIRST rewards teams that help others. The best way to do well at a competition is to have good partners. In the case of top-level teams, this means pulling the other teams up to your level. That can mean anything from helping adjust strategy during a match to helping machine parts for another team. The vast majority of the 51 teams on the complete list understand this and practice it.

Most of the top level teams will be happy to help struggling teams. If they are local and familiar with your team, they might have been anxiously waiting for you to ask for help, knowing that unsolicited advice is rarely taken. Look at this list as a way to identify those teams that are most likely to be able to help you with your problems.
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Unread 01-01-2009, 16:11
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

I'm quickly becoming confused by this thread. There are a fair number of people arguing against this top 25 list on these grounds:
  • It can be discouraging to rookie and "weaker" teams
  • It has a ridiculously small sample size
  • It's based on relatively little besides popularity
Basically, those against are arguing that the validity of the list is extremely low, and it might be harmful to other teams, theirs included. Meanwhile, the supporters are arguing:
  • It will be encouraging to rookie and "weaker" teams
  • It has a ridiculously small sample size
  • It's based on relatively little besides popularity
So it seems that people supporting the list are arguing that it has little validity, so people shouldn't really care what it says, and it might encourage some teams, theirs included. Also, anyone who's discouraged by something like this is just silly, a wimp, or doesn't have the right priorities.

So, it seems like everyone can agree that the list itself has little bearing on reality and how teams will perform this season. It seems the argument is mainly down to whether having a public display of popularity and notoriety is a good thing or not. It is perhaps obvious at this point that I don't think trying to create a FIRST based popularity contest is a good thing.

So, I'll argue that this pointless poll is harmful. At the very least, it's not beneficial in any meaningful sense. As we can see in this thread, it's primarily generating argument over whether particular "elite" teams are ranked properly or deserve to be on it. I can guarantee you that none of the teams on this list and none of the teams with a remote chance of getting on this list actually need the "motivation" purportedly provided by it. They know they're excellent, and they strive for excellence every year in everything they do. I seriously doubt the prospect of moving up or down a rung on such a silly poll is really going to matter. Especially considering the teams that actually have a chance of making it on this list.

And yes, let's be honest and admit that there are a huge number of teams that have no chance of making it on this list, or the post-build list, or whatever other lists there are. Teams that don't post on CD about their robots won't be on this list. Rookies teams that win regionals probably won't be on this list next year because they don't have enough "history". Middle of the road teams that are consistently good partners, but rarely alliance captians... One regional teams... Basically, this list is set up to celebrate "elite" multiple regional teams that wins tons of matches, championships, etc. that everyone already knows about. Which seems very wrong to me given the rhetoric I often hear around here about good support robots for 2nd and 3rd picks being important for a winning alliance, etc. etc. To me, all a list like this is saying to these teams, is that they're only important in so far as they help these elite Top 25 teams maintain their eliteness. And that the only way these teams are going to achieve their own eliteness is to forget about being a supporting robot, forget about being a team player, and go all out for being a top seeded team that consistently dominates the other teams. Which is perfectly fine if we actually want to go that route and model ourselves after the cut-throat, win at all costs, nobody matters but my team mentality that pervades (nearly all) college and professional sports... But I could have sworn we were really aiming for a different kind of culture in FIRST.

So, in summary, I think it's a useless, meaningless "poll" with little bearing on reality and can be safely ignored as a predictor of actual success of any teams. I also think that it's one of the many aspects of the over-hyped college sports media complex that we would be much much better off ignoring.
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  #50   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-01-2009, 17:49
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Is this run by looking forward?
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  #51   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-01-2009, 17:53
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

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Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
Is this run by looking forward?
I wouldn't count on it. When did you take your WAI picture?
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  #52   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-01-2009, 17:55
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

I know a lot of people from smaller teams are outraged over this survey, but I learned something from it:

Vegas this year is gonna be INTENSE.
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  #53   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-01-2009, 17:58
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Nice list. Thanks for taking the time to create it for us to discuss here.
For the people perhaps upset that they are not up there: Even if the next 26 teams who got votes are mentioned, and your team doesn't make it, spot #52 is not contested. How do you know you would not have been voted in the next spot? #52 out of 1500 is nothing to gripe over. Also, it's just a list.

As far as making FIRST more like sports, I'm not so sure that's a great idea. My reasoning: go to an NFL game. What makes you want our events to be like that? The fans there have passion just as much as us but are crude and inconsiderate. I prefer FIRST to not be like sports personally.

-Begin Rant-
In regards to the accuracy of the list, my guess is that is regionally biased somehow unless the people voting were from many different parts of the world and truly had no preference. You see it in the AP and BCS polls all the time that people are regionally biased. Of course since I attend FLR every year, I'm going to say 340, 1126, 191, 365, and all the other great teams there are awesome. I get to see them every year. My suggestion... if you want to rank teams, get computer rankings. I know a lot of people will say "but that's what is wrong with college football!" Really? Is that what you think or what you've heard ESPN say 1000 times. We're in the fields of science and technology, there must be some people out there that would be able to trust a formula carried out by a computer. In fact, go look at some statistics about computer rankings in the BCS and how often they get proven correct at the end of the bowl season. It's staggering.
-End Rant-

But seriously, nice list.
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Unread 01-01-2009, 18:06
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

I was honored to be one of the voters on this poll...

I am mostly surprised not to see 191 in here.
I mean - their history is awesome, and they are a great team every year.

It shows that one of the main considerations in other voters was last year's performance...i thought more of history.

anyhow, here's the list i gave:
1)71
2)1114
3)217
4)111
5)67
6)103
7)365
8)233
9)254
10)330
11)45
12)47
13)968
14)40
15)987
16)1024
17)191
18)16
19)842
20)1124
21)1902
22)2056
23)236
24)1625
25)148
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Unread 01-01-2009, 18:42
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAVESaj25bd8 View Post
Nice list. Thanks for taking the time to create it for us to discuss here.
For the people perhaps upset that they are not up there: Even if the next 26 teams who got votes are mentioned, and your team doesn't make it, spot #52 is not contested. How do you know you would not have been voted in the next spot? #52 out of 1500 is nothing to gripe over. Also, it's just a list.

As far as making FIRST more like sports, I'm not so sure that's a great idea. My reasoning: go to an NFL game. What makes you want our events to be like that? The fans there have passion just as much as us but are crude and inconsiderate. I prefer FIRST to not be like sports personally.

-Begin Rant-
In regards to the accuracy of the list, my guess is that is regionally biased somehow unless the people voting were from many different parts of the world and truly had no preference. You see it in the AP and BCS polls all the time that people are regionally biased. Of course since I attend FLR every year, I'm going to say 340, 1126, 191, 365, and all the other great teams there are awesome. I get to see them every year. My suggestion... if you want to rank teams, get computer rankings. I know a lot of people will say "but that's what is wrong with college football!" Really? Is that what you think or what you've heard ESPN say 1000 times. We're in the fields of science and technology, there must be some people out there that would be able to trust a formula carried out by a computer. In fact, go look at some statistics about computer rankings in the BCS and how often they get proven correct at the end of the bowl season. It's staggering.
-End Rant-

But seriously, nice list.
If you examine the attached excell doc. found in thread entry #37, you will see an effort to reduce subjectivity for ratinig purposes (a simple formula but one that offers correlational suggestion for ranking based on field and Chairman's success)...granted what one makes of the data is still a subjective experience since most of us agree that there is so much more to FIRST than winning. How one interprets the excell rating depends on how much weight they think winning competitions and Chairman honors should carry in their decision to list their "top" 25. Past performance (especially recent) can provide predictive opportunity-look at how bookmakers make lines on games and over the long run predict success of given teams with enough accuracy to make billions from less analytical bettors. It certainly moves the argument away from a "popularity" based ranking system though...and don't forget that performance based data lays the foundation for any great scouting program that so many teams use to help choose alliance partners.

When all is said and done, the originating top 25 list is simply a compilation of opinions and a great spring board for discussing what may constitute a "top" team. Every student in this great organization is already part of an elite group when one considers the hundreds of thousands of high school students not involved in this movement...

Last edited by JB987 : 01-01-2009 at 19:07.
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Unread 01-01-2009, 19:42
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbun View Post
I know a lot of people from smaller teams are outraged over this survey, but I learned something from it:

Vegas this year is gonna be INTENSE.
Your right! Vegas is going to be crazy, and the most competitive regional in my opinion this year.

-Keaton
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Unread 01-01-2009, 20:03
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Quote:
Originally Posted by KF987 View Post
Your right! Vegas is going to be crazy, and the most competitive regional in my opinion this year.

-Keaton
I haven't looked at the final lists for all regionals recently, but Vegas definitely has the potential to be the most competitive. I'm excited, I imagine the finals will be a big shootout. I hope the alliances get fragmented, so there are 4-8 real competitive alliances, rather than 2-3.
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Unread 01-01-2009, 20:31
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

I'm honored that Team 233 is number three on the list, but I'm the first to admit that rankings like this are just for fun. There are teams which are consistently good, but even the best teams have ups and downs in "reading" what it will take to play the new game well. To my team, our high ranking presents a challenge to prove that we belong there. To those who didn't make the list, you have the challenge of proving the six who made this list wrong. I, personally, have more fun exceeding expectations rather than falling short of expectations, which made the 1998 Championship I experienced with Team 45 so sweet. We had disastrous years in '96 and '97, and had maybe the most impressive turnaround in FIRST history to win in '98. The same can happen for those of you in teams that didn't make the "list." What I'm saying is this. Don't take rankings like this too seriously.
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Last edited by Kit Gerhart : 01-01-2009 at 20:35.
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Unread 01-01-2009, 22:01
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackN View Post
148 has also won two championships.
You got me on that one, thanks. What year was their first Championship win?



This poll, albiet with only six voters, aims to represent which teams are most likely to do well in building robots, competeing at competitions, and how well they will do. Of course, not all teams are going to make this list. The voters, yet unnamed by myself, left many teams that deserve to be on this list off. I really wish I could have have moved team XXXX up or down a spot, but that would be dishonest so I just let it be. The reason I compiled this was for everyone's viewing pleasure. The idea is that, by the end of the season, we will have a perfect Top 25 Ranking. This idea won't happen, but it will become more closer to perfect.

This probably isn't really helping to promote FIRST, but it is helping to promote the competition itself. The FRC in the thread title stands for "FIRST Robotics Competition." In a competitive event like this, there will be teams that are better than others. Last year, my team finished with a record of 7-7-1, so there certaintly are better teams out there. Being able to accept this is part of the experience. I do not feel like crap because my team did not make this list, but I am proud and admirable of the teams that did.

This poll is not without bias. This poll represents the opinions of only six people. It is not ideal, but it is something. It may be as useless and meaningless as someone's predictions for a regional, but it is also as interesting as someone's predictions.

Changes need to be made to this poll. The most obvious is voters. If there is anyone who wants to become a voter, PM me. The more voters there are, the more fair this poll becomes. Next time the explanations, intended for those who don't already know about the team, will be left off. Instead, team number and name will be listed. Any other suggestions, complaints, and vain degradations would be appreciated. Suggestions would be most beneficial and productive, however.

The other 26 teams receiveing votes, which may be more interesting than the first 25, are:

11
40
47
60
69
79
93
100
118
121
179
180
191
236
343
348
359
469
488
503
910
1124
1717
1983
2171
2753
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Unread 01-01-2009, 22:13
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Re: FRC Top 25- Preseason Ranking

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshsmithers View Post
You got me on that one, thanks. What year was their first Championship win?
'93 I think?

Woah, 11 is up there?? Sweet to get some recognition. Did I vote in this for my own team and forget or something? lol

Btw 2753 is a good prediction of a team that will do well, but should most definitely not be up there considering the voting criteria. (Look at my profile's user title btw) =D
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Last edited by Akash Rastogi : 01-01-2009 at 22:20.
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