Go to Post Engineering is a fabulous background for many careers. - dtengineering [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Control System > FRC Control System
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-01-2009, 15:39
Unsung FIRST Hero
Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
Broadcast Eng/Chief Robot Inspector
AKA: Big Al WFFA 2005
FRC #0111 (WildStang)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Wheeling, IL
Posts: 10,766
Al Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond reputeAl Skierkiewicz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Power Distribution - Low current breakers or fuses?

For anyone questioning last years rules, the fuses were allowed on custom circuit boards for local protection but the custom circuit itself needed to be protected by a 20 amp breaker. Why a breaker, because the rules don't allow you to run out on the field during a match and replace a blown fuse.
As others have pointed out, the GDC is aware of the complications of using smaller wire and smaller breakers. However, we will know tomorrow if they will allow something less than 20 amps and #18 wire.
__________________
Good Luck All. Learn something new, everyday!
Al
WB9UVJ
www.wildstang.org
________________________
Storming the Tower since 1996.
Reply With Quote
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-01-2009, 16:59
DonRotolo's Avatar
DonRotolo DonRotolo is offline
Back to humble
FRC #0832
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 6,979
DonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Power Distribution - Low current breakers or fuses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by diviney View Post
This statement appears in <R45>: "In addition to the required branch power circuit breakers, smaller value fuses or breakers
may be incorporated into custom circuits for additional protection".
Yes, and that's what R82-84 implies: So long as you start with a KOP breaker, you feed it to your custom circuit (which can have a fuse holder, holding a small fuse). If the 2008 rules were in force, I'd get a bunch of the Keystone fuse clips and build a distributor (a custom circuit in its own right) for my custom circuits, or buy one as COTS - I'd ask for an interpretation of R45 for that case, since it is pretty clear in what it says.

On a related subject: When proper fusing is not an option, the next step is an FMEA analysis, and take actions to address the modes that could impact current draw. The goal is then to limit the damage that overcurrent could cause. In such cases I might employ teflon insulated wire to handle the heat, manage the heat (forced cooling for the wire), protect the wire from damage, or something like that. In some cases, protecting the wiring is sufficient as the circuit is intrinsically current-limited.
__________________

I am N2IRZ - What's your callsign?
Reply With Quote
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-01-2009, 23:39
diviney diviney is offline
Registered User
FRC #2377
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Pasadena, MD
Posts: 43
diviney has a spectacular aura aboutdiviney has a spectacular aura aboutdiviney has a spectacular aura about
Re: Power Distribution - Low current breakers or fuses?

Don:

A FMEA... Interesting thought. Perhaps this thought could turn me around into thinking a 20 amp breaker can be "safe" even with a control circuit using "light gauge" wire.

The worrisome failure mode in this case is a wiring short. The PD specs indicate that the Wago connection to the VB3 breakers can accept AWG10-24. If we were to use AWG 22 wiring as suggested on the diagram on page 13 of section 3, then you would worry about the wire fusing. Although 20 Amps is well above where you should operate a 22 gauge wire, it's fusing current is roughly 40 amps (well, this depends on a lot of things, but hey, you sort of have a 100% safety margin above the breaker trip point). I suppose you could envision a partial short failure such that you drew 20 amps constantly (not enough to trip the breaker, or fuse the wire, but could cause dangerous heating rather quickly while something tries to dissipate the resulting 240 watts). This is much less likely than a full short however.

Maybe you wouldn't use AWG 24 however because it's fusing current is more like 29 amps (only a 50% margin). AWG22 or heavier sounds like it may be reasonable safe...

If you look at the VB3 performance curves, these breakers will take around a second to trip at 200% of the rated current. I would think that the wire would take significantly more than a second to fuse, although it would be interesting to perform some tests to see. Our students would probably love to do some experiments which resulted in sparks and smoke (in a very tightly monitored and safe way of course) to explore this !!!

Of course the self-resetting breaker will repeatedly stress the wire as it tries and tries to recover. The VB3 data sheet states "less than 15 seconds" to reset.

Let's see what the official rules say tomorrow. It is quite likely they will say the same thing as last year, but we don't have to wait much longer to find out.

-Tom
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Our Power Distribution mjgard Electrical 17 23-01-2008 15:17
Power Distribution Block kE7JLM Electrical 4 17-01-2008 08:48
New Power Distribution jsmith234 Electrical 6 03-02-2007 15:05
Power distribution Block? Pontchartrain Electrical 3 27-01-2006 07:30
Power Distribution xxmaddjxx Electrical 13 30-01-2005 00:43


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:23.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi