Removing game pieces from Trailers

[JoshuaFreier]

Hi Kevin,
I'm not sure I agree with your blanket statement that you can touch trailers. I agree that they can be touched in the bumper zone but <G32> seems pretty clear about any contact out side the bumper zone.

<G32> ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction - ...
...E. Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is not acceptable, and will result in a PENALTY. The offending ROBOT may be disqualified from the MATCH if the offense is particularly egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT.

Joshua

[The Megan 2207]

I know that CONTACT outside the bumper zone is illegal (<G32>), but is it illegal for a robot that is smaller than the specified dimensions to extend outside its bumper zone during the match, but not touch any other robots?

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by The Megan 2207

I know that CONTACT outside the bumper zone is illegal (<G32>), but is it illegal for a robot that is smaller than the specified dimensions to extend outside its bumper zone during the match, but not touch any other robots?

Yes. if you stay in 28"x38"x60"

[keehun]

As far as I'm aware you can't have anything outside your bumper limits at any given time?

[Phil Ross]

Originally Posted by Jedward45

Correct me if Im wrong, but is it possible to build a forklift-ish thing on the back side of a slightly smaller robot? this pronged arm could be placed at the base of the trailer at the beggining or directly after, the beginning of the game. Then in the final seconds, you could flip the arm up and launch any rocks out of the trailer. It would not be attaching to the trailer, if it does not touch the sprockets of the trailer.

From what I understand from one of the game rules, you cannot LIFT the trailer...also, its attached with a steel bar, so lifting is kinda already out of the question.

[Xeno_117]

Originally Posted by rtfgnow

Yes. if you stay in 28"x38"x60"

Still, that means compressing your robot into a smaller space than usual (unless your a team that built a tiny drive train in overdrive). The best way one could do this is some kind of tower, which might be topheavy. ultimately, This idea is extremely hard to pull off. it would take a stroke of genius for one topic in a forum to do this.

[ATannahill]

Originally Posted by Xeno_117

Still, that means compressing your robot into a smaller space than usual (unless your a team that built a tiny drive train in overdrive). The best way one could do this is some kind of tower, which might be topheavy. ultimately, This idea is extremely hard to pull off. it would take a stroke of genius for one topic in a forum to do this.

I was not saying that it was a good idea or that they should do it, I was just clarifying a rule. On the other hand I do not want that first sentence to make you not do it.

P.S. I would not put it past F.I.R.S.T.* to declare in the first update that we can expand from the starting position, putting us all back a few days in design.

*For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology

[The Megan 2207]

Originally Posted by keehun

As far as I'm aware you can't have anything outside your bumper limits at any given time?

I read through the rules and I didn't find anything that stated that robots must remain within their BUMPERS. There is a size limit, but my interpretation of the rules is that a smaller robot may extend slightly, but stay within the dimensions specified in <R11>, to score more easily. If someone can find a rule that limits a robot to stay within the bumper limits, I would like to know. I have read through the robot rules and the game rules at least 4 times and I have not found one.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by JoshuaFreier

Hi Kevin,
I'm not sure I agree with your blanket statement that you can touch trailers. I agree that they can be touched in the bumper zone but <G32> seems pretty clear about any contact out side the bumper zone.

<G32> ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction - ...
...E. Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is not acceptable, and will result in a PENALTY. The offending ROBOT may be disqualified from the MATCH if the offense is particularly egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT.

Joshua

Contact with what? Allied Robots, Allied Trailers, Opposing Robots, Opposing Trailers? The field? Sec. E does not really specify what it's talking about. Also, that still doesn't make it illegal, just dangerous. If the descoring robot is clearly taking measure to avoid illegal contact, they can't be forced into it by another robot for a penalty. I think it needs to be asked, at the very least.

[ExarKun666]

Originally Posted by The Megan 2207

I read through the rules and I didn't find anything that stated that robots must remain within their BUMPERS. There is a size limit, but my interpretation of the rules is that a smaller robot may extend slightly, but stay within the dimensions specified in <R11>, to score more easily. If someone can find a rule that limits a robot to stay within the bumper limits, I would like to know. I have read through the robot rules and the game rules at least 4 times and I have not found one.

<G32>
E. Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is not acceptable, and will result in a PENALTY.
The offending ROBOT may be disqualified from the MATCH if the offense is particularly
egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT.

<R16> Once the MATCH has started, the ROBOT may assume a PLAYING CONFIGURATION that
is different from the STARTING CONFIGURATION. The ROBOT must be designed such
that the PLAYING CONFIGURATION of the ROBOT shall not exceed the dimensions
specified in Rule <R11>.

So from the 2 above quotes, my interpretation is, you can extend your robot out, as long as it's in the imaginary box, and does not interfere with other robots.

[PhilBot]

Originally Posted by JoshuaFreier

Hi Kevin,
I'm not sure I agree with your blanket statement that you can touch trailers. I agree that they can be touched in the bumper zone but <G32> seems pretty clear about any contact out side the bumper zone.

<G32> ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction - ...
...E. Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is not acceptable, and will result in a PENALTY. The offending ROBOT may be disqualified from the MATCH if the offense is particularly egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT.

Joshua

The trailer is NOT the ROBOT. Whe have a whole section defining the ROBOT. The trailer is not included in that definition.

So "ROBOT to ROBOT" Interaction does not automatically include the Trailer. Just because the ROBOTS cannot touch outside the bumper zone does not automatically prohibit one ROBOT touching another Trailer.

Another example of this...All "Posession" rules apply to the ROBOT, but do not include the Trailer. eg: Your ROBOT cannot Possess two Empty Cells, but you could have 4 in your Trailer.

[ExarKun666]

Originally Posted by PhilBot

The trailer is NOT the ROBOT. Whe have a whole section defining the ROBOT. The trailer is not included in that definition.

So "ROBOT to ROBOT" Interaction does not automatically include the Trailer. Just because the ROBOTS cannot touch outside the bumper zone does not automatically prohibit one ROBOT touching another Trailer.

Another example of this...All "Posession" rules apply to the ROBOT, but do not include the Trailer. eg: Your ROBOT cannot Possess two Empty Cells, but you could have 4 in your Trailer.

Yeah, and the BUMPER ZONE is as follows:

BUMPER ZONE – the volume contained between two virtual horizontal planes, one inch above the
floor and seven inches above the floor.

Two virtual horizontal planes, that are contained, which implies your trailer is part of the BUMPER ZONE, so you could potentially look at this as an opportunity to see this as you being able only to remove balls from your own trailer and no one else's, but whether it removes the points or not is still very confusing to me, anyone know?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by ExarKun666

Two virtual horizontal planes, that are contained, which implies your trailer is part of the BUMPER ZONE, so you could potentially look at this as an opportunity to see this as you being able only to remove balls from your own trailer and no one else's, but whether it removes the points or not is still very confusing to me, anyone know?

Exar,

By your extremely permissive interpretation, you cannot touch the following items when they are not between 1 and 7 inches from the floor:
-Field structures
-Moon rocks
-Empty cells
-Super cells

<G34> specifically addresses ROBOT-to-ROBOT interaction, right there in the name. TRAILERS are brought into the description as well as a seemingly separate issue. At worst you could assume that <G34> applies to all ROBOTS, aside from your own, and all TRAILERS, including your own. In which case, you would be correct that descoring would be much more difficult.

Phil and I are pointing out that Section E. doesn't seem to apply to TRAILERS as it is written, and thus it isn't a problem. We're certainly open to correction from the GDC, but that's the way it appears to us at the moment.

In a more general sense, I assume that if the GDC hasn't specifically forbidden something, they're probably allowing it. Especially as they seem to have considered other forms of descoring (tipping goals). I can't bring myself to believe they didn't consider whether teams might attempt descoring in this fashion.

[codye91]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but as I am seeing it. The robot is able to contact other robots legally because remember as they said at kickoff. The surface leaves room for contact, but I seriously doubt that someone is going to speed up across the floor and ram an alliance member to knock out moon rocks.

So far, there are no rules saying this or that about descoring, but I can be positive, they are probably very soon to come.

It seems to me like as of now, there is no rule against it...
The only problem is fitting the robot inside that imaginary box that it must fit into every single moment of the match which is what is being interpreted. Whatever happened to starting the match inside of the box and being able to extend as the match goes on???

[Hellfeier675]

Blocking your own trailer should be legal if you could figure out how to be able to stay in your 28x38x50 dimensions. First didn't put any rule up against that... yet.