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Unread 04-01-2009, 12:39
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

I love the game, but not the game theme, which seems a little more childish than the past few.

On another note, this change makes me loathe the policy I pushed before graduating, which was to not use a drivetrain unless it has been tested before. I assumed the drivetrains would not change much, but I was very wrong.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 12:56
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

I like the game concept a lot. It is new, unique and will be very interesting to see the dynamics of 6 players on this field.

I am a bit worried however, that it will decrease the number of unique designs and limit creativity a bit. The size limitations and drive train limitations makes me think we are going to see a lot of aim high machines with new wheels. It is always a little strange when a robot from a previous year will work pretty well (even if with just small modifications) for a new game.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 13:04
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

I spoke with a few members of the GDC in Manchester. They are thrilled that they made such a radical change this year and it's well received.

I always worry the the game will be too tough for the rookie teams. I think they achieved a great balance this year.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 13:12
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

Long time since I've posted, wow. I like that they went with something different. As a driver I think it's going to be fun learning how to drive on the new surface. It should be difficult for veteran teams as it breaks from the norm, but easy for newer teams as it's a relatively simple game.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 13:44
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Sayre View Post
I like the game concept a lot. It is new, unique and will be very interesting to see the dynamics of 6 players on this field.

I am a bit worried however, that it will decrease the number of unique designs and limit creativity a bit. The size limitations and drive train limitations makes me think we are going to see a lot of aim high machines with new wheels. It is always a little strange when a robot from a previous year will work pretty well (even if with just small modifications) for a new game.
This is my only concern with this game. Limiting us to the same wheels and not expanding outside the starting box brings back very bad memories of Aim High. I loved Aim High, awesome game, but I had one issue with it, there were a LOT of similar robots. (Yes I know that we could expand in 2006 just not above 60") I fear we will have robots where the drive trains are all the same and that worries me. There is a quote by Ken Patton about when he saw a team moving sideways it was inspiring to him floating around here somewhere. We more than likely WON'T see that this year, we might see something cooler (I hope we do) but I cannot help but worry if this year is stifling creativity.

Concerns about having a TON of the same robots aside this game presents one other concern to me. The robot that is literally a box on wheels can beat the precision engineered robot, to me that is NOT inspiration. To me that says to do the bare minimum because anything else is a waste of resources. Any game where a box on wheels is a viable strategy worries me.

Aside from those worries I almost like the game. I will wait until 2nd week (Kettering District Event) to pass judgement on this game but as of right now it looks interesting. I am seriously hoping my concerns are wrong because this could be one awesome game, it does throw everything we have ever known to the winds and I like that.

Edit: Plus, being a native Michigander who drives a rwd car on ice all the time I can say that driving on this field is gonna be FUN!
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Unread 04-01-2009, 17:29
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
The robot that is literally a box on wheels can beat the precision engineered robot, to me that is NOT inspiration. To me that says to do the bare minimum because anything else is a waste of resources. Any game where a box on wheels is a viable strategy worries me.
Any team that can pour resources onto a machine and have it come out nothing better than a box on wheels worries me! If your machine does the same things as a box on wheels but with precision mill-work and expensive sensors and the whole thing is coated in lexan just for the giggles: congratulations that WAS a waste of resources. You want to talk about entrepreneurship? You want to talk about real-life applications? A check book is not an appropriate brute force tactic in real life, and because of that fact it is reasonable to propose that it probably shouldn't be considered one in FIRST.

This is pretty much about the minimums you design your bot for. A robox is a pretty solid minimum. If you design your robot in the abstract of "how much better does our design do the task at hand than showing up to the match with only a human player" that is a very low minimum. A slightly better minimum is "how much better does our design do at the task at hand than showing up with a robox?" Higher still would be "what will an average team do at the competition and how can we blow that out of the water?" and for the truly ambitious "what will a good team be able to do and how can we top that?" What you shoot for depends a whole lot on what your team feels ready to take on, but if you take on a low minimum threshold for what you consider to be acceptable performance in your design, don't be so shocked when your robot works no better than you designed it to.

You're totally right! A box has a very high performance this game as a minimum. I guess that means it is probably the lowest benchmark you can safely use when designing a good bot because you can already see how many teams are going to try it.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 18:15
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by usbcd36 View Post
I love the game, but not the game theme, which seems a little more childish than the past few.
This is one of my main complaints too. Obviously it's not a huge deal, but this game seems to have more of an FLL-style theme than past games. Now there's nothing wrong with FLL for its age group, but I would like to think FRC is a little more mature.

The shared resources is always a welcome competitive aspect to a game which should provide some great excitement as teams scramble and claw for the remaining balls as time runs down. The only other gripe I really have is the lack of a secondary goal that would require the use of a specialized manipulator. I've always enjoyed games that allow for big, diverse manipulators, which is why I ended up loving last year's game despite my initial wariness. I'm sure Lunacy will grow on me in the coming time, especially as I start to see pre-ship robot videos surface on youtube.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 18:24
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

I've complained at 2007, and while I still never liked Rackn' Roll, I have to admit that it was not a failure. I was also very much against last year's game to begin, but once the regionals started I fell in love with it.

My first reaction to Lunacy was not that positive...but the more I get involved with it, the more I can't wait to see competition.

The reason why I like it, is probably because it reminds me of my rookie year's game Zone Zeal, and there is nothing better then reliving one's FIRST past.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 18:25
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

Hmm I have not really decided yet wether I like this game or not. I usually do that when it actually comes time for the competitions. Because I start out saying hmmm this isnt gonna be fun but than by the end of the competitions I realize how fun the game actually is. I think that this game has a lot of potential to be fun.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 18:36
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

Poor Royal Assault (356), we feel for them as fellow users of custom wheels.
Hahaha
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Unread 04-01-2009, 19:35
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

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Poor Royal Assault (356), we feel for them as fellow users of custom wheels.
Hahaha
*clears throat* 357 *clears throat*
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Unread 04-01-2009, 20:22
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

My views towards Lunacy have changed vastly.

While watching the animation and for the rest of Saturday I flat-out hated it. I hated the simplicity and the design restrictions. The only thing that seemed cool was the drifting and no ramming/pinning penalties.

One day later while designing the robot and after sleeping on it I am really looking forward to it. I think that it will still be a good game to watch/play and that there will still be plenty of great/cool robot designs out there despite the limitations.

I do however have one thing to say as a team that hosts a pre-ship scrimmage:

120 Wild Time Orbit Balls ................ ~$1200

24'X50' of Regolith ................... ~$1300

Knowing that you will most likely never need these again....... Priceless
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Unread 04-01-2009, 20:47
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

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Knowing that you will most likely never need these again....... Priceless
I believe Theo the word used to describe that is PAINFUL.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 20:49
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

I think the people who are decrying this year's titles like "commander" and "mission specialist" as "too immature for us adults" need to stop taking themselves so seriously.

One
, FRC is designed for pre-college students so nobody playing the game can consider themselves a legal adult.

Second
, these names are ripped directly from the titles used for NASA astronauts (and they don't seem to mind them).

Third, if the idea is to simulate a real-world challenge (such as moving/mining on the moon, which thousands of "real" engineering are currently working on), then its appropriate to used the correct vocabulary to extend the metaphor.

Fourth (and MOST importantly), I think you'll find that so-called "adults" who are so full of themselves as to think they're "above" a little goofyness like special titles aren't much fun to be around anyway.

In fact, I think the only real criticisms could be that (1) it makes the game less accessible to the general public (since they have to learn vocabulary), and (2) at first it's harder to talk about with teammates (though that will fade quickly).

My $0.02
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Unread 06-01-2009, 21:24
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1t5h1e1o View Post
My views towards Lunacy have changed vastly.

While watching the animation and for the rest of Saturday I flat-out hated it. I hated the simplicity and the design restrictions. The only thing that seemed cool was the drifting and no ramming/pinning penalties.

One day later while designing the robot and after sleeping on it I am really looking forward to it. I think that it will still be a good game to watch/play and that there will still be plenty of great/cool robot designs out there despite the limitations.
My reaction was quite opposite. When I first saw the game in the Kickoff video, I loved it. I thought it would be a great challenge, be very fun to watch, and create interesting solutions. Over the last three days, I have come to really dislike it, though. <G14> was (in my opinion) not only thought through even less then <G22> from last year, the assumptions it is based upon are completely wrong. And make no mistake: this is a rule that will come into play constantly during every regional. I don't like the first update, which "elaborates upon" in a patronizing tone rules which were never there until now. The restrictions are overbearing, especially after the aforementioned update. The game places too much emphasis on the human player-don't get me wrong, a human player is a great idea, but this is too much.

And finally, in my opinion, the obvious effort to even the playing field in this game is, while well-intentioned, going to have the opposite effect. It is strikingly similar to what has happened in Formula 1, which used to be practically open in terms of car and engine design. However, lately there have been increasing efforts at regulation and standardization-some of them have been for safety and some to cut costs, but many have had as a stated goal the improvement of competition. However, they have had the opposite effect. In the past, teams could come up with really innovative ideas to provide an advantage, and many did; famous examples of which include the Tyrell P34 and theBrabham BT46B "fan car", which ironically enough is apparently banned in this competition just as it was in real life. These days, however, in order to eak out any improvement, teams must do hours upon hours of expensive wind tunnel work, use gigantic simulators to test any part thoroughly before even considering trying it, and basically spending millions upon millions of dollars for improvements of tenths of seconds.

Lunacy will be similar-IMO, the most important factors in this game will be the human player, the drivetrain, programming, and the driver. The first factor is essentially a wash, despite some concerns over "basketball players" or the like. But the rest will not be. Sure, many teams will have to rethink their drivetrain and we will thankfully see the disappearance of the "trick" wheels, but the veteran teams will still have an advantage. We all know that. Programming will be even worse-I'm sure you have all seen the talk about here about traction control, anti-lock braking, and all the other three-letter abbreviations standard on new cars of the day. How do expect any programmer new to FRC to handle any of that? And given the new surface and quickly disappearing game pieces, the only drivers that will have much practice will be the ones on teams that can afford the game field, and in these economic times, there are not many of those.
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