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Unread 04-01-2009, 11:41
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Marra View Post
There appear to be handheld boxes for Refs to use to keep live scoring. If we presume there is no descoring, this will be completely accurate live scoring:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2242118...7611844292070/
I think most of us who have ever attended week one regionals (when the field software always has a few kinks yet to be worked out--as in 2006, when the scoring couldn't keep up with rapid-fire autonomous) have learned the risks of trusting live scoring...
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  #77   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-01-2009, 11:43
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Bonzack View Post

The dominate team does just that, dominates, but stays within the rule so the score is within 3x the opposing alliance's score. The team that must face the dominate team in the next match chooses to score enough to go over 3x, thus they even the playing field for the next match because neither alliance will have any super cells.
That's not exactly right though. In the next match, each alliance will be down two of their FOUR super cells, and that's only if those alliances decide to put the teams that are down super cells in one of the two corner fueling stations.

If both that dominant team and that decent team from the previous match are put into the outpost stations, then there will only be four empty cells available in the entire match, two per alliance.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 12:06
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

How are they going to keep track of all this? What if someone makes a mistake and there is a cell were it is not supposed to be and one of the better scouts catch it at end of match. do-over? Looks like refs aren't going to have it that easy.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 13:13
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BethMo View Post
ThunderKate wrote



I don't see a definition of this term in this year's rules. However, I vaguely remember a rule at some time in the past (or, possibly, from a different event altogether) where, if there weren't enough teams to fill out a match schedule, a team could be assigned to fill in extra rounds as a surrogate, to prevent playing matches with no opponent. These matches result in a score for the real player, but not for the surrogate.

Anyway, that's how I interpreted it.
Yes, that's how I see it. From page 3 under "Tournament":

Quote:
All teams will play the same number of qualifying matches except if the number of team appearances (number of teams multiplied by number of rounds) is not divisible by six; in that case the Field Management System will randomly select some teams to play an extra MATCH. For purposes of seeding calculations, those teams will be designated as SURROGATES for the extra MATCH. If teams play a MATCH as a SURROGATE, it will be indicated on the match schedule, and it will always be their third match.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 13:57
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

By delaying the impact for outscoring the opponents by a large margin,
I wonder if teams that can score alot, will still demonstrate that ability in their last match, to encourage high ranked teams to pick them as an alliance partner?

As the rule is now written, they really wouldn't be putting themselves in danger of having less balls to play with, in their next match would they.(Unless, I misread the rule).

This might put them in a difficult situation, especially if their alliance partners for that match still have a match to play.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 14:26
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

Wow, this is a pretty horrible rule...If you're part of an amazing team/alliance, you should be rewarded for it. They earned their ability, and should not be discriminated against.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 14:55
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by footballguy View Post
I think it's a ridiculous rule, maybe they don't remember how 07 turned out when they tried to put everyone on equal playing fields, it gave good high number teams a huge advantage and others a huge disadvantage, and now this year they can penalize you based on doing good in a DIFFERENT match. I don't think it will be as important as '07 but it still has disaster written all over it, so remember teams do good but not to good. thats the spirit were lookin for.
Could you clarify what you're talking about in 2007? I don't remember anything of the sort happening... and I also really liked 2007.

I also really like Lunacy so far, and <G14> is part of the reason why. It may seem unfair in various ways to some people, but it is a part of the game, and we have to accept that and work with that. The complexity <G14> adds to the game and the amount of strategy it brings in is why I like it so much. It may not end up leveling the playing field the way we're expecting it to now, we're going to have to wait to see how the game plays out as the season progresses. There are a lot of directions this rule could turn, so you shouldn't write it off as bad right now.
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  #83   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-01-2009, 15:09
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meaubry View Post
By delaying the impact for outscoring the opponents by a large margin, I wonder if teams that can score alot, will still demonstrate that ability in their last match, to encourage high ranked teams to pick them as an alliance partner?

As the rule is now written, they really wouldn't be putting themselves in danger of having less balls to play with, in their next match would they.(Unless, I misread the rule).

This might put them in a difficult situation, especially if their alliance partners for that match still have a match to play.
I don't see anything that wipes out the blowout penalty going from Qualifying matches to Elimination matches. If you score big in your last match, you bring a burden with you into your Elim alliance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfgirl View Post
Could you clarify what you're talking about in 2007? I don't remember anything of the sort happening... and I also really liked 2007.
I'm guessing he's talking about the tiered scheduling algorithm. Each Qualifying match alliance had a team from the lower 1/3 of team numbers, a team from the middle 1/3, and a team from the highes 1/3. This was under the vendor's theory that lower numbered teams were veterans, and that automatically made them better; upper number teams were rookies and that made them worse.
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  #84   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-01-2009, 15:13
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Marra View Post
There appear to be handheld boxes for Refs to use to keep live scoring. If we presume there is no descoring, this will be completely accurate live scoring:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2242118...7611844292070/
There is a new position this year, the Official Scorer. Regional volunteer coordinators were told to get 4 referees, who were to be trained and certified. In addition there will be 6 scorers, who do not need pre-certification.

I'm guessing now - These scorers will attempt to provide real-time scoring using the shown handheld. Then at the end of the match they will come onto the field to confirm the ball counts, based on <T13>.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 15:19
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyBear View Post
I personally think it is the whole alliances responsibility to agree if they want to risk losing a match by boosting the opposing team's score to gain a higher ranking score versus going all out (thus possibly losing the chance to use their super cell the following match). It is a calculated risk the alliance must take. If each team sees that their following match is up against a pretty good alliance, they need to voice their opinion.

What teams really should do (in the spirit of GP) is to send one team representative to alert their following match alliance of the possibility of losing a super cell and perhaps asking if the strategy for that up coming match is dependent on the super cell.
That may be a valid idea, but it's beside the point.

Whether or not Team B planned to get 3x the score or not, or alerted my alliance that they were getting 3x the score or not, they did. And now my team is paying the price for actions committed by another team in a match we didn't even participate in.
Even having a fair warning beforehand does not make that situation fair to my team.


To take it a step further, what if Team B's partner in the previous match, Team D, did it intentionally? Team A (my team) is ahead of Team D in the standings, and they know that Team B is paired with us next. So Team D then decides to triple the score of the opponents to put my alliance at a disadvantage in our match.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 15:24
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

It's a stupid rule...

But who cares? Just build a robot so good it doesn't even need the fancy pants super cell (or whatever the dumb terminology is) to win.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 15:28
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
It's a stupid rule...

But who cares? Just build a robot so good it doesn't even need the fancy pants super cell (or whatever the dumb terminology is) to win.
Cory, what happens when you then run up against another team that built a robot that doesn't need the fancy pants super cell to win? When you're facing a team as good as you are, suddenly it becomes important again...
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Unread 04-01-2009, 15:32
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meaubry View Post
By delaying the impact for outscoring the opponents by a large margin,
I wonder if teams that can score alot, will still demonstrate that ability in their last match, to encourage high ranked teams to pick them as an alliance partner?

As the rule is now written, they really wouldn't be putting themselves in danger of having less balls to play with, in their next match would they.(Unless, I misread the rule).

This might put them in a difficult situation, especially if their alliance partners for that match still have a match to play.
I totally agree with this. Those who do well should be rewarded not hurt. Thats the survival of the fittest and it adds motivation and competition. Its a good thing.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 15:34
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

Someone already brought this up, but it wasn't really talked about; the situation:

Blue Alliance scores 30 points.
Red Alliance scores 0 points. (or after penalties the alliance score is reduced to zero)

Technically, the Blue Alliance had an infinite multiplier (because 30 divided by 0 = infinity). Does this mean the teams won't have any super cells to work with next match? Maybe I've overlooked something here, but it would be nice if someone could clarify this.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 17:09
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Re: <G14> Shenanigans?

If an alliance is good enough to win by a blowout, then they are good enough to win by something less than a blowout.

The only place where I would be too concerned about this is in matches that aren't really blowouts... say 20-10, or even 30-10. Perhaps, however, with even moderately competent human players the minimum scores will be in the 30-40 range.

Mostly, however, I think Cory hits the nail on the head when he says to plan to win without the supercell. I'm suspecting, given the effort that is required to score a supercell that the chances of seeing four of them (or even three of them) come into play in one match for one alliance will be minimal. I suspect they'll be kind of like the spoiler rings in Rack-n-roll... good for a bit of drama, sometimes, but rarely a match deciding factor.

Jason
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