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Unread 04-01-2009, 18:36
Lodyev Lodyev is offline
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

Poor Royal Assault (356), we feel for them as fellow users of custom wheels.
Hahaha
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Unread 04-01-2009, 19:35
Akash Rastogi Akash Rastogi is offline
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

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Originally Posted by Lodyev View Post
Poor Royal Assault (356), we feel for them as fellow users of custom wheels.
Hahaha
*clears throat* 357 *clears throat*
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Unread 04-01-2009, 20:22
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

My views towards Lunacy have changed vastly.

While watching the animation and for the rest of Saturday I flat-out hated it. I hated the simplicity and the design restrictions. The only thing that seemed cool was the drifting and no ramming/pinning penalties.

One day later while designing the robot and after sleeping on it I am really looking forward to it. I think that it will still be a good game to watch/play and that there will still be plenty of great/cool robot designs out there despite the limitations.

I do however have one thing to say as a team that hosts a pre-ship scrimmage:

120 Wild Time Orbit Balls ................ ~$1200

24'X50' of Regolith ................... ~$1300

Knowing that you will most likely never need these again....... Priceless
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Unread 04-01-2009, 20:47
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

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Originally Posted by 1t5h1e1o View Post

Knowing that you will most likely never need these again....... Priceless
I believe Theo the word used to describe that is PAINFUL.
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Unread 04-01-2009, 20:49
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

I think the people who are decrying this year's titles like "commander" and "mission specialist" as "too immature for us adults" need to stop taking themselves so seriously.

One
, FRC is designed for pre-college students so nobody playing the game can consider themselves a legal adult.

Second
, these names are ripped directly from the titles used for NASA astronauts (and they don't seem to mind them).

Third, if the idea is to simulate a real-world challenge (such as moving/mining on the moon, which thousands of "real" engineering are currently working on), then its appropriate to used the correct vocabulary to extend the metaphor.

Fourth (and MOST importantly), I think you'll find that so-called "adults" who are so full of themselves as to think they're "above" a little goofyness like special titles aren't much fun to be around anyway.

In fact, I think the only real criticisms could be that (1) it makes the game less accessible to the general public (since they have to learn vocabulary), and (2) at first it's harder to talk about with teammates (though that will fade quickly).

My $0.02
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Unread 06-01-2009, 21:24
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

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Originally Posted by 1t5h1e1o View Post
My views towards Lunacy have changed vastly.

While watching the animation and for the rest of Saturday I flat-out hated it. I hated the simplicity and the design restrictions. The only thing that seemed cool was the drifting and no ramming/pinning penalties.

One day later while designing the robot and after sleeping on it I am really looking forward to it. I think that it will still be a good game to watch/play and that there will still be plenty of great/cool robot designs out there despite the limitations.
My reaction was quite opposite. When I first saw the game in the Kickoff video, I loved it. I thought it would be a great challenge, be very fun to watch, and create interesting solutions. Over the last three days, I have come to really dislike it, though. <G14> was (in my opinion) not only thought through even less then <G22> from last year, the assumptions it is based upon are completely wrong. And make no mistake: this is a rule that will come into play constantly during every regional. I don't like the first update, which "elaborates upon" in a patronizing tone rules which were never there until now. The restrictions are overbearing, especially after the aforementioned update. The game places too much emphasis on the human player-don't get me wrong, a human player is a great idea, but this is too much.

And finally, in my opinion, the obvious effort to even the playing field in this game is, while well-intentioned, going to have the opposite effect. It is strikingly similar to what has happened in Formula 1, which used to be practically open in terms of car and engine design. However, lately there have been increasing efforts at regulation and standardization-some of them have been for safety and some to cut costs, but many have had as a stated goal the improvement of competition. However, they have had the opposite effect. In the past, teams could come up with really innovative ideas to provide an advantage, and many did; famous examples of which include the Tyrell P34 and theBrabham BT46B "fan car", which ironically enough is apparently banned in this competition just as it was in real life. These days, however, in order to eak out any improvement, teams must do hours upon hours of expensive wind tunnel work, use gigantic simulators to test any part thoroughly before even considering trying it, and basically spending millions upon millions of dollars for improvements of tenths of seconds.

Lunacy will be similar-IMO, the most important factors in this game will be the human player, the drivetrain, programming, and the driver. The first factor is essentially a wash, despite some concerns over "basketball players" or the like. But the rest will not be. Sure, many teams will have to rethink their drivetrain and we will thankfully see the disappearance of the "trick" wheels, but the veteran teams will still have an advantage. We all know that. Programming will be even worse-I'm sure you have all seen the talk about here about traction control, anti-lock braking, and all the other three-letter abbreviations standard on new cars of the day. How do expect any programmer new to FRC to handle any of that? And given the new surface and quickly disappearing game pieces, the only drivers that will have much practice will be the ones on teams that can afford the game field, and in these economic times, there are not many of those.
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Unread 06-01-2009, 07:27
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

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Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi View Post
*clears throat* 357 *clears throat*
I have their button on my wall, it's 357.

One of our mentors from last year was with those guys and he showed me there custom mechanum wheels, I bet those guys were stunned... I bet that also has to really suck.

I'm a big fan of mechanums and omnis...
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Unread 06-01-2009, 09:39
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Re: Anybody really dis-like the game?

I'm going to skip most of what DeepWater said because I agree with him and there is no sense in me just re-saying everything he did. Lets just pick up some other scraps.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Who said 397 would design a box on wheels? Trust me, I had a mentor on 2337 have to explain the KISS (Keep it simple Schreiber) principle to me earlier today. The answer to that is I will push our students to do more than that.
I was never saying you would or should design a box or anything that is the same functionality as a basic box. I said that if you put all the resources in and achieved something no more functional than a box that you wasted your time and resources. The implication was that the additional resources and skill you believe you have could be used to design something that did more than a box did. Otherwise all you have done is created a more expensive and complicated version of something which already worked just fine. That is commonly known as bad engineering.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Your argument about how every kid deserves FIRST makes sense, honestly it does, but there is one problem. Every student deserves an education too. Does that mean that teachers have to start testing so that even the worst students can pass? In a class room if I get 28% on a test and you get 90% what do you want the teacher to do, adjust my score so that is a 90% too? Because, you know, every student deserves to graduate. And you know what, while we are at it, everyone deserves a Mercedes Benz, and paid vacation, and a million dollar home right? You know why people can buy those things? You know why teams pay Michael Jordan millions of dollars to throw a ball in a hoop? Because he worked his butt off.
Aside from the fact that a good many of the people who buy million dollar homes do it with either money they don't have (borrowed from a bank) or inherited from their parents...I'll stick with the spirit of your post and debate you from there.

No, nobody is saying you have to pass all the kids, I'm just saying they should all get to take the exam. What high school a student attends has NOTHING, and I mean absolutely NOTHING to do with the student's natural talent, determination, work ethic, or any other estimation of merit. The high school you attend is a reflection of many factors: primarily your parents income because of the relation of housing prices to school district quality. In the case of private schools it still normally based on your parent's income because your parents must pay for the school. Even if the student gets a scholarship there is still the question of the parent's dedication to providing transportation to the school every day for at least the first two years until the student is of legal age to drive, then either continuing to drive or finding the financial means to provide the student with the car. In short: since the merit of the student has a minimal impact on what high school the student will attend it seems pretty reasonable to minimize the advantages of attending one high school over another. FRC is a high school activity. Thus, it is reasonable to minimize the advantages of showing up on one team over another. Let them fight it out for the trophy on their own merits, to do anything else is an insult to their potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
I fail to see why everyone being like rookies is a good thing. Eric I noticed you are a teacher, I will assume you have a decade of experience teaching (could be more or less either way). If I were to apply the same idea to your pay as you are applying to the veteran teams you would be paid the same as a new teacher, is that fair?
I find that a pretty absurd comparison. A team may be decades old but under normal circumstances no student will have more than three years experience going into a season with a team. Is it proper for a student to inherit glory simply because he goes to the right school? To reap the rewards of all the students who poured everything into the robots for years before him? Of course not, that would be absurd. Students attend high schools based on their parent's merits: not their own. That would be, in your metaphor, to determine the pay grades of new teachers based on the salaries their parents received. If this was a college league that might be different: the merit of the student plays a much stronger influence on what college he attends. Students do not attend different high schools based on their merit in this country. Propping up existing teams in a high school league, saying that they should continue to be strong just because they were strong, I view as a pretty huge social injustice. The kids need to earn it: each and every year.

And if you look at your own words, I think you will find yourself agreeing with me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
217 can build a stellar robot every year, you know why? Because they have dedicated students and mentors. I would be willing to bet you that if you told 217 that they could only spend $800 on a robot this year they would STILL put out a stunning machine. How do I know that? I know the team, I know that their quality doesn't come from money, it comes from their passion for FIRST, their desire to win.
So, I fail to see why you would object to the "everybody is rookies" setup. If anything your statement there seems like it would cause you to applaud this move! Now the "good teams" (you chose 217, I'll take your word that they don't beat puppies for fun ) will be able to rise above those who simply once had a member, ages ago, who happened to find a particularly impressive solution to the "driving on carpet" problem or have a fat checkbook. This system should reward exactly teams with the qualities you mentioned.

So why do you object to it?
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