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Unread 05-01-2009, 17:18
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can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

any suggestion or answers are highly welcomed.....thank you
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Unread 05-01-2009, 17:31
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

Well technically you can't control the speed, but you can control the acceleration which gives you a little control over the speed. Here are some things my team discovered last year. By placing a needle valve (they have a small screw and locking ring and come in the KOP) on the venting end of the cylinder it will slow the cylinders extension based upon how fully closed it is.
If you want a cylinder to extend faster you must dump more air into by using multiple valves etc (see 39 last year).

Changing cylinder speed during a match would be more difficult, but is definitely possible.
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Unread 05-01-2009, 17:32
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

In the past, my team has used 3 valves to control the speed of a piston. The first valve was a on/off valve to change the direction of the piston, and the other two valves had flow limiting exhausts on them. You send the output air from the first valve and then "T" it to the other two valves giving you the cases: both off, one venting, or two venting. This can give you a custom slow and fast speed for your piston, and if you wanted to you could add a number of valves to get a finer resolution, given that you can get each one to limit the air flow that much.
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Unread 05-01-2009, 17:34
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team2339 View Post
any suggestion or answers are highly welcomed.....thank you
Yes. There are commercially available, 125 PSI rated flow-control fittings that can go into a cylinder. They aren't in the KOP this year, though.
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Unread 05-01-2009, 17:34
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

Thank you.. and one more question, can we use three different regulators to the same cylinder?
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Unread 05-01-2009, 17:36
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Yes. There are commercially available, 125 PSI rated flow-control fittings that can go into a cylinder. They aren't in the KOP this year, though.
Oops My apologies,
I stated the valves were in the KoP, but I believe Eric is correct--this year they are not.
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Unread 05-01-2009, 17:47
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

Merle,
There are needle valves that are available that can control the volume of air that enters/leaves the cylinder. However, they are not designed to control the speed at which a cylinder operates. Teams have experimented with lower working pressures by adding a second pressure regulator downstream from the 60 PSI working regulator as described in the pneumatics manual. Please be advised that the valves do not seal much below 30PSI and so they become unreliable at reduced pressure.
There are many threads here that discuss this problem for the price of a search. The discussions will give you an insight to some of the team experience from past years.
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Last edited by Al Skierkiewicz : 05-01-2009 at 17:50.
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Unread 06-01-2009, 16:04
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

This brings me to ask the question...
Why do we have so many less pneumatic components in the KOP this year??

We don't have any of the hose connectors and flow regulators we have always had in the past. We also only have one solenoid. In the past we had several.

We still have the compressor and its associated fittings and gauges and such but we don't have the final fittings to move the air around.

I wonder if FIRST lost that supplier ??

We really enjoy using pneumatics and they are easy for rookie teams to put together... or at least they USED to be easy... now they will have to purchase their own components to handle this.

I DID see that we can use cylinders that are NOT Bimba this year.
They just have to comform to the size/length requirements...

Interesting...
I have fittings left over from other years so I can proceed...

We should all support rookie teams by sharing these older fittings and information with them... Perhaps we should start a clearing house for the
pneumatically disadvantaged (IE Rookie Teams) and donate some of the fittings they will need (and old solenoids that were never used...)

?????
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Unread 13-01-2009, 22:50
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

The ultimate solution would be to purchase an analog output card for the cRIO. Though I dunno if it would be legal.

Purchase a 9263 4-channel analog output 0-10V output module to control a pneumatic analog regulator.

Next you'll need a 12VDC version of an analog regulator.

Last you'll need an external piloted valve because most KOP valves are internal pilot and won't trip the spool below 30PSI if you want to control PSI down to 1 PSI use an external pilot valve and vary the regulator with an analog 0-10V control signal with a full scale of 60 PSI is equal to 10volts.

You'll have to post some questions to make sure all the above is legal though...

Attached is a spec sheet on something I was checking into.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf VP10%20ElecPressReg.pdf (32.3 KB, 74 views)
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Unread 13-01-2009, 23:56
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

There's another, option that's quite likely to be legal, though it's largely insane. You could get a standard 12V, high frequency, low response time solenoid valve and wire it to the pneumatics bumper just like you would any other valve. Then laugh maniacally while telling your programming team that you want to duty-cycle control your solenoid valve. It's marginally nutty, as it hasn't been done in FRC before, but I think it'd work fairly brilliantly if you got a valve with a good enough response time and maximum operating frequency. Festo makes some rather fast valves, but they're 24VDC operated. Still, I think it'd be interesting if someone tried this in FRC.
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Unread 13-01-2009, 23:57
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Steele View Post
This brings me to ask the question...
Why do we have so many less pneumatic components in the KOP this year??
I think the reason is because we can't extend outside of our starting area, so any pneumatics are going to be extremely limited in length, and usage. our team on day three just decided that we couldn't think of a way that we could use pneumatics in a better way than we could use a motor or a servo, it would just have been a waste of space to put that stuff on there for one or two small pistons that would need tons of equipment to use (compressor, air tanks, hose) compared to 2 wires per motor, and a spike.
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Unread 14-01-2009, 13:13
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

1075 in the past has built a multi-position pneumatic arm. To control the speed of your pneumatics, teams typically use the flow control fittings that came in the kit (at least in previous years). To build our multiposition arm, we have 3 valves, 1 to control direction, and 2 to control the flow of air to and from the direction valve. by switching the source and exhaust lines, you can make the piston stop at any point along its travel.
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Unread 15-01-2009, 10:47
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

Multi position would work. Do you have a scematic of what you described?
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Unread 11-02-2009, 03:47
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

We are using the Festo to switch between a high and low pressure. Seems to be working pretty well. The hard part was writing a latch circiut in Labview to lock the Festo in the powered position. We also found that we had to have the high pressure in the correct port, to provide the internal pilot pressure.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 03:55
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Re: can we control the amount of air to control the speed of the cylinder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
valves do not seal much below 30PSI and so they become unreliable at reduced pressure
I've worked with the SMC solenoids (that used to be in the kit) for a coupple of years, and was able to run them very reliably at pressures down to 5 psi, which we used last year in competition (frcteam2002)

this year, we're running an SMC at 20psi, and have not had any problems yet...

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