2009 - Live camera feed to drivers during a match?

[Travis Hoffman]

People seem to ask this question every year, and in the past, the answer has always been "NO", but this is the first year a video signal can be transmitted back through the wireless bridge for display on a LabVIEW dashboard program, so...................

I was looking through Section 8 of the Manual, and I could not find anything that prohibited displaying the live video feed from the camera on the PC dashboard at the operator's station during a match.

Enlightenment requested.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

People seem to ask this question every year, and in the past, the answer has always been "NO", but this is the first year a video signal can be transmitted back through the wireless bridge for display on a LabVIEW dashboard program, so...................

I was looking through Section 8 of the Manual, and I could not find anything that prohibited displaying the live video feed from the camera on the PC dashboard at the operator's station during a match.

Enlightenment requested.

From which camera? Standard rules are in place for non-KOP cameras (<R69>).

However, the KOP camera is classed as a vision sensor (<R02>C refers to vision sensors as remote sensing capabilities, and the camera is certainly a vision sensor). I can't find anything that would prohibit that one being sent back to the operator station. I would ask in Q&A. I expect that the answer would be "yes" for that camera only.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by EricH

From which camera? Standard rules are in place for non-KOP cameras (<R69>).

However, the KOP camera is classed as a vision sensor (<R02>C refers to vision sensors as remote sensing capabilities, and the camera is certainly a vision sensor). I can't find anything that would prohibit that one being sent back to the operator station. I would ask in Q&A. I expect that the answer would be "yes" for that camera only.

Yes, I was specifically referring to the Axis camera.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

Yes, I was specifically referring to the Axis camera.

In which case, I refer you to <R81>. You can connect a computer for viewing feedback, which could easily include information from a vision sensor (aka Axis camera).

I would still ask in Q&A, but I am 99% sure that the answer will be something to the effect of, "If the camera is the Axis camera, go right ahead. If it is another camera [possible exception: CMUCamII], you won't get past inspection."

[Racer26]

I have seen no rule to prevent such an action, and it is at least technically possible with the new control system. As for any benefit to be had from it, I would think it would be negligible, especially given the ~5-7 fps framerate on the display over wifi.

[Danny Diaz]

Actually, unless something has changed the answer is, "NO. During match play, all ports except those used by the Drivers Station are blocked by the field management system. This rules out being able to get camera feedback, since getting camera feedback is not a primary function of the Driver Station but instead is done on a separate port."

The issue is bandwidth, and guaranteeing bandwidth, IIRC. At least, this has been the answer every time I've ever asked the FRC development team here at NI, even up to 2 weeks ago. Then again, the Game Design Committee has the final say, so it'll have to come from them.

-Danny

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Danny Diaz

Actually, unless something has changed the answer is, "NO. During match play, all ports except those used by the Drivers Station are blocked by the field management system. This rules out being able to get camera feedback, since getting camera feedback is not a primary function of the Driver Station but instead is done on a separate port."

The issue is bandwidth, and guaranteeing bandwidth, IIRC. At least, this has been the answer every time I've ever asked the FRC development team here at NI, even up to 2 weeks ago. Then again, the Game Design Committee has the final say, so it'll have to come from them.

-Danny

OK cool, thanks. I do recall that restriction being mentioned on the forums sometime late last year - just wanted the "official" answer - I feel this is close enough, and I think the GDC has more important questions to answer anyway.

[mbeardsworth]

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

OK cool, thanks. I do recall that restriction being mentioned on the forums sometime late last year - just wanted the "official" answer - I feel this is close enough, and I think the GDC has more important questions to answer anyway.

I remember seeing that as well.

It seems to me that this is actually a rather important question. Our design-in-process will be much easier to operate with camera video available. If the GDC does prohibit us from sending camera video to the laptop, hopefully they'll still allow us to send graphical feedback. My system will work fine as long as I can use data from the camera to draw a picture.

Perhaps we have to find the intensity and color of each pixel and send that to the DS so we can turn it back into video at the laptop. (Hopefully not...)

[comphappy]

Originally Posted by Danny Diaz

Actually, unless something has changed the answer is, "NO. During match play, all ports except those used by the Drivers Station are blocked by the field management system. This rules out being able to get camera feedback, since getting camera feedback is not a primary function of the Driver Station but instead is done on a separate port."

The issue is bandwidth, and guaranteeing bandwidth, IIRC. At least, this has been the answer every time I've ever asked the FRC development team here at NI, even up to 2 weeks ago. Then again, the Game Design Committee has the final say, so it'll have to come from them.

-Danny

Woah,
Does that mean I cant show the rpms of my wheels? or the status of limit sensors? getting more feedback from the robot was one of the things I was really looking forward to, especially in a match where it may be hard to see some of your robot.

[MikeE]

I agree that this is an important question, and I was surprised it wasn't explicitly addressed in the competition manual.
It was mentioned as being unlikely we would be able to receive live video feed during competition at the WPI control system seminar and the same point has been repeated since. My understanding is that "live" video is sent back as a distinct stream from the standard driver station data. The latter does include some user data so reporting RPM etc should be OK. I haven't tried sending images back this way, so I don't know what the user data limitations are.

Our experience is that the update rate & transmission delays make it unlikely that the video on the dashboard could be the sole means of driver feedback - at least for a maneuverable robot on carpet - but maybe it would be OK for this years skidfest!

However it is up to the GDC, so we should know soon after Q&A is open tomorrow.

[MPG]

Rule <R81> in the robot section of the manual says

<R81>
Teams are permitted to connect a portable computing device (Laptop computer, PDAs, etc.) to either of the Ethernet ports on the Driver Station for the purpose of displaying feedback from the ROBOT while participating in competition MATCHES. Portable computing devices may only connect to the Driver Station through one of the Ethernet ports – they shall not connect to the Driver Station through any other port. Portable computing devices may only connect to the Driver Station – they must not directly connect to any ARENA ports or equipment. Please note that AC power will not be available at the playing field so these devices will have to run on internal batteries.

The bolded section will solve your problem

[Jon Jack]

When I went to control system training at NI in Austin this very question was brought up.

You CANNOT stream video back for viewing on the dashboard, THIS YEAR. FIRST is worried about the load 6 robots streaming up 640x480 video would put on the field network. So for now the answer is no.

As for other feedback from encoders, switches, etc... It's fair game. If I understood things correctly you can also pull information from the FMS such as time remaining, field status and operator mode.

[pgaston]

Is it possible to bring data back simply to the driver station for display or use there?

I see that the driver station has the potential to hook up multiple input devices to the digital and analog ports. Neat. BUT - is there a way to send information back to the driver station and use that information? Either for display on the device (if there is room) or through digital output.

In Labview I see something called 'Set User Data'- but it basically says you can send 984 bytes from the host computer (I'm assuming that means cRio) to the driver station.

Crazy thought - think about enabling the shaker on a joystick under certain conditions...

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Jon Jack

When I went to control system training at NI in Austin this very question was brought up.

You CANNOT stream video back for viewing on the dashboard, THIS YEAR. FIRST is worried about the load 6 robots streaming up 640x480 video would put on the field network. So for now the answer is no.

Then they might want to put that out in public, via an update or Q&A. Sorry, Jon, but if it isn't in the rules, it isn't in the rules, and right now, it isn't in the rules (or Q&A, the interpreters of the rules).

Next up: someone with a Q&A account asks this question. (I don't have one.)

EDIT: Double apologies to Jon, but the GDC has made the ruling that it is legal. Practical remains an unknown factor.

[nathanww]

*warning:theoreticallness ahead*

Since streaming of video isn't explicity prohibited in the rules(it's just that the port is firewalled off),it might theoretically to possible to have a thread on the cRio that would "tunnel" video data over the user data interface, and code your dashboard program to reconstruct the video, similar to how you would set up a TCP/IP tunnel on a computer. Of course, I don't know what kind of data rate you could get, or whether it would interfere with your controls