Team Update #1

[Stuart]

I don't know, the whole way that FIRST does team updates . . kinda feels like a waiter brings out your food, puts it in front of you. then just as you get your forks out, hurries to change your order because the chef wanted to make soup not steak . . kinda unprofessional. In this regard is where I really have to say BEST manages better than FIRST.

but ohh well. on to how to place balls while being at least 10 inches away from where they need to be.

Edit: to elaborate on BEST's team updates method. they have a Q&A much like FIRST where rules are clarified. Past that there are no updates to the official rules or additional rules. Once the game is out that is the game that will be played. If BEST had intended for teams not to steal they would ( and have in past games) simply said teams cannot remove game items from other teams scoring areas.

[Kit Gerhart]

For now, it looks like the "fan suck down" idea is still legal, if we can make it work. Given that we have these two extra CIM motors that won't be needed for the drive train, I think it is still worth investigating.

[nahstobor]

Originally Posted by Kit Gerhart

For now, it looks like the "fan suck down" idea is still legal, if we can make it work. Given that we have these two extra CIM motors that won't be needed for the drive train, I think it is still worth investigating.

Sorry 233, http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/

"3) Don’t spend time attempting to develop a vacuum car system like Jim Hall’s sucker Chaparral car. Even a slight suction over the base of the robot will damage the field surface and you don’t want to do that (See the 2009 FIRST Robotics Competition Manual section 7 rules G-29 & G-30)"

We were thinking the same thing, to bad we can't do it.

[Kit Gerhart]

Originally Posted by nahstobor

Sorry 233, http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/

"3) Don’t spend time attempting to develop a vacuum car system like Jim Hall’s sucker Chaparral car. Even a slight suction over the base of the robot will damage the field surface and you don’t want to do that (See the 2009 FIRST Robotics Competition Manual section 7 rules G-29 & G-30)"

We were thinking the same thing, to bad we can't do it.

Thank's very much for clueing me in. We can now apply full effort to other things, like picking up and shooting balls, rather than looking for the ideal leaf blower/shop vac/ whatever, and coming up with a configuration for the "skirt" for the base of the robot. It seemed like a fun, and worthwhile concept to pursue for this game. Oh well.

[eNyoron]

Man, the fact that you have to stay within the vertical projection of the bumpers really inhibits the ability to create an effective dumper... you have to get the balls going about 4 inches from the dumping mechanism in order for them to actually land in the trailer. I actually had a really long discussion with a mentor about using a rotating hatch, similar to the mail deposits where you pull down on the handle insert the letter and gravity causes the letter to fall into the box when closed again, but in reverse. The idea was that when retracted, contact would indeed stay in the bumper zone, but it would extend beyond that for just a second to unload balls, and now that idea's moot. </rant>.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by eNyoron

Man, the fact that you have to stay within the vertical projection of the bumpers really inhibits the ability to create an effective dumper...

My thoughts exactly. It looks like they want everyone to be a shooter. Given the difficulties with that in 2006, and the more random squishy nature of the Orbit balls, I was hoping to see some very effective dumper designs. It would be hard enough to work within the 28x38 restrictions; you'd have to make your base slightly smaller so you could have a 4-6" chute that extended over your robot's and the trailer's bumpers.

I'm not upset at no-goaltending and no-descoring rules, as it would have been difficult to do within the 28x38 footprint anyway.

Originally Posted by Madison

I didn't receive an e-mail blast about Team Update 1. Did anyone?

Rookies don't know to look for this stuff, so remember to get the word out to your local rookie teams about the changes this update implements.

I'm not a mentor, so I'm not on the list. This Update came out on a Tuesday; last year the schedule was Tuesdays and Fridays. Were teams informed to look for Updates on this schedule this year?

[johnr]

Team Update #1

1- You will build team #???? robot from 2006
no other updates this year

[Paul Copioli]

I heard a rumor that they will hold down the surface with double sided carpet tape underneath and fiberglass tape at all of the seams and edges. We are using 4 x 8 sheets and have 3/4 of a field put together. We are only using the fiberglass tape and the field doesn't move. The tape is clear with fibers going the long way and sideways like a grid. I found it in the paint department at Home Depot. The double sided tape is in the flooring / carpet department at Home Depot.

We have driven about 6 hours on the floor and it is holding up just fine. All of the forces this year are much, much lower than in previous years.

[Swampdude]

I'm surprised nobody seems upset about the descoring issue. I've wasted 2 unpaid days heading in that direction.. Where do I send the bill? I don't see how this game is affected much by the robots. The human players will have the trailers half full by the end of autonomous. So now we're trying to fight over a few supercells and a few moonrocks the whole match? not to mention if we want a decent drive system, we're left with barely any room (within the bumper perimiter) to pick up balls. It seems like they want a tie every match regardless of effort. Sorry but I'm really dissapointed with this one...

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Swampdude

I'm surprised nobody seems upset about the descoring issue. I've wasted 2 unpaid days heading in that direction.. Where do I send the bill? I don't see how this game is affected much by the robots. The human players will have the trailers half full by the end of autonomous. So now we're trying to fight over a few supercells and a few moonrocks the whole match? not to mention if we want a decent drive system, we're left with barely any room (within the bumper perimiter) to pick up balls. It seems like they want a tie every match regardless of effort. Sorry but I'm really dissapointed with this one...

Have you built a trailer and tried to get orbit balls in? It's hard. Really freakin' hard. I'm not much of a basketball player, but I couldn't get them in when the goal was 10 feet away, yet alone moving all over the place! Up until this point I think we've really really over-estimated the human players ability to score. You've got to hit an area marginally larger than the ball itself. Sure, if a robot sits still in autonomous, there most of the 20 will make it in. If a robot dies near the other alliances Human Player, most of the 20 will go in. Barring that, the humans will be really really ineffective.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Swampdude

I'm surprised nobody seems upset about the descoring issue. I've wasted 2 unpaid days heading in that direction.. Where do I send the bill? I don't see how this game is affected much by the robots. The human players will have the trailers half full by the end of autonomous. So now we're trying to fight over a few supercells and a few moonrocks the whole match? not to mention if we want a decent drive system, we're left with barely any room (within the bumper perimiter) to pick up balls. It seems like they want a tie every match regardless of effort. Sorry but I'm really dissapointed with this one...

You truely believe that your human player will be able to get 10 shots off in 15 seconds and get them all in over a 6 1/2 foot tall barrier and on a moving target? Consistantly?

I think you seriously have overestimated your human players capabilities ... unless his name is Larry Bird.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Swampdude

I'm surprised nobody seems upset about the descoring issue. I've wasted 2 unpaid days heading in that direction.. Where do I send the bill? I don't see how this game is affected much by the robots. The human players will have the trailers half full by the end of autonomous. So now we're trying to fight over a few supercells and a few moonrocks the whole match? not to mention if we want a decent drive system, we're left with barely any room (within the bumper perimiter) to pick up balls. It seems like they want a tie every match regardless of effort. Sorry but I'm really dissapointed with this one...

I've explored the descoring topic a bit on my own, and I haven't really found a really good way even before this prohibition...though remember, marketing major.

No intelligent team will go through an event without at least an attempt at a dumb run-the-heck-away-from-here routine. I don't know whether we'll see much robot-on-robot scoring in autonomous, but I could picture a fun round of jockeying for position--imagine a couple of robots double-teaming an opponent back into the corner, near-ideal conditions to let the human players pick a few off. (Or the same idea could bolster a partner's attempt to score a few balls autonomously.)

I fully expect things to remain quite interesting.

[OScubed]

Originally Posted by Kit Gerhart

For now, it looks like the "fan suck down" idea is still legal, if we can make it work. Given that we have these two extra CIM motors that won't be needed for the drive train, I think it is still worth investigating.

Um. No. They specifically ruled out Chapparell style sucking devices.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by OScubed

Um. No. They specifically ruled out Chapparell style sucking devices.

Um, no, they didn't. Jim, who may be on the GDC but is not the rulebook, stated that they are illegal because they damage the floor. I honestly don't see where he's coming from-perhaps skirts too low might scratch the floor, or something. But if you don't damage the floor, there is nothing illegal about those systems.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Um, no, they didn't. Jim, who may be on the GDC but is not the rulebook, stated that they are illegal because they damage the floor. I honestly don't see where he's coming from-perhaps skirts too low might scratch the floor, or something. But if you don't damage the floor, there is nothing illegal about those systems.

I think you mean Bill.

Incidentally, the GDC is the Supreme Court of FRC right now. (They are also the Legislature and the executive branch.) So if one of them says something about a rule, you might want to listen up. If Bill posts something, I'm willing to bet that it's also the opinion of the rest of the GDC.