GDC you have failed us.

[Jeff K.]

You can look at it however unleveled you want. A team has the capacity to use such and such over teams that don't have that capacity, etc etc etc. There is no way to truly make the playing field level unless they give you specific amounts of materials, and make you have to use those exact materials. Then everyone would complain about the GDC restricting us too much, which I believe happens to be another thread topic...

You can complain as much as you want, you may get a few game updates here and there, but all your complaining is wasting time you could spend designing or figuring out a way of solving the problem.

The thing about veteran teams having more knowledge. Many veteran teams are willing to share their past designs with other teams to help out rookies. If this is a reason for why teams don't perform well, how does this explain "the amazing phenomenon" of rookie teams outperforming veteran teams?

[waialua359]

I am not so sure the issue is about leveling the playing field, which is what this thread is about so far.
If anything, with a new control system and tougher constraints, the gap will widen with a few elite teams. I'd bet, this will be evident at CMP.

[synth3tk]

Just because a rookie team is a rookie to FRC, doesn't mean they may not know what to do. As stated by Billfred, a good amount of first-year teams have done very well.

A sigh of relief went through the room as we heard that these KOP wheels were mandatory. Everybody knows that this will "level the playing field", even if not completely.

In my honest opinion, a few of the previous games weren't really all that "difficult" to everybody. Sure, some teams had the time, resources, or creativity to do very well in the competition. But just because you were in the program since 1998 (I know it started in '92) doesn't mean that you're automatically a powerhouse team.

I agree with whomever stated that this time would be better spent developing a solution instead of complaining about the problem.

[waialua359]

Its 1992.

[synth3tk]

lol, That's besides my point, but thanks for the fact.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by swamp_child

I keep hearing people say that the GDC has leveled the playing field this year, however I feel this is simply not true. While it is true that we are playing on a totally different surface, there are still many, many aspects a rookie team will not be able to over come.
As wildstang demonstrates in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS_I0cRmGIE) there is still going to be a huge advantage to anyone who has a crab drive system, perhaps this year more than ever (as discussed in another thread simple tank drive is going to have tons of problems this year). Additionally we are starting with a whole new programming platform, however this platform was beta tested by many teams, all of which are many year veteran teams.
I could rant on for quite a while about this, and if anyone wants me to expand upon any of my points, go ahead and ask, and I'll do my best to explain. But come on people this game isn't leveling anything, if anything it's just broadening the gulf between the vets and rookies.

I think you (and many others) are over-estimating the challenge. It seems from this post by Dave Lavery (a GDC member) it isn't terribly difficult to maneuver reasonably well on the surface. At first I too, thought they had broadened the gap. Now I'm pretty sure they've leveled the field more precisely than ever before.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

I think you (and many others) are over-estimating the challenge. It seems from this post by Dave Lavery (a GDC member) it isn't terribly difficult to maneuver reasonably well on the surface. At first I too, thought they had broadened the gap. Now I'm pretty sure they've leveled the field more precisely than ever before.

I don't think a lot of people are criticizing the game simply because they think the robots are hard to control. I think people are saying that complex drivetrains may still grant an advantage, along with many other issues they have.

[JagWire]

To me, this is a brilliant game. The GDC, as already stated, threw EVERYONE a significant curve ball this year. My team is actually worse off than a lot of rookies right now. We are having to UN-LEARN much of how we used to do things in order to deal with these new constraints and problems.

Ha, seems like just as we're settling on how to solve a problem we remember... "ohh yea... they changed that this year... back to the drawing board..." We've taken a lot for granted the past few years. We had finally settled on a great drive train we just kept repeating, so we never had to worry about that, just threw it together in the first week, and spent the rest of our time working on arms, manipulators, code, strategy, ect.

This year though... we have to completely rethink everything all over again. The only real advantage vet teams have this year is just a sort of familiarity with having to solve some interesting problems. That, and just having resources of engineers, mentors, ect. to help them understand the problems, and the solutions.

There are always rules that don't make us happy, but they're a big part of the challenge. Engineering isn't a fairy tale; we live in a world of constraints. Some of the best engineering I've ever done happened after I got over the fact that constraints exist, and I got down to business and built something that was innovative and worked well anyways in spite of it.

Don't let the challenge discourage you. Embrace it, let it drive you. Hehe, 'we don't do these things because they are easy, we do them because they are hard'

[popo308]

Originally Posted by swamp_child

As wildstang demonstrates in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS_I0cRmGIE) there is still going to be a huge advantage to anyone who has a crab drive system, perhaps this year more than ever (as discussed in another thread simple tank drive is going to have tons of problems this year).

It doesn't even look like wildstang is "crabbing around" at all it this video...
Most crab bots also have a "tank" type mode to re-orient. To me it just looks like there "tank driving"
A crab drive might not even be the best idea for this game because if you are crabbing sideways you are pulling the trailer sideways as well and the wheels won't be straight... I realize that yes the floor is very slick but this could still drag the back end a bit and cause your bot to arc when driving sideways...
Just a thought

Also we had a tank drive prototype running around on the field surface with a fare amount of control...

[smurfgirl]

The GDC has not "failed us" by any means. They have created a new challenge for 2009, which is indeed a challenge to all of us. It pushes us outside our comfort zone and forces us to think creatively, and to reconsider things that in the past, we have taken for granted. Yes, this is hard to do. No, it does not make us rookies again. But, when is the playing field ever truly "level"? This year, veteran teams still have seasons of experience and knowledge behind them; even if they don't have their custom wheels and perfect drivetrains, they still have all of the learning and wisdom that has come with years of facing new challenges in this program. FIRST is still FIRST, no matter which season we're talking about, and these veteran teams are going to help out the rookies around them, and pass on some of the valuable lessons they have learned. Younger teams will still be inspired by other teams, individuals, and robots. The competitions will still be full of spirit and excitement. The world is not ending in 2009, and the GDC has done no harm. (In fact, I'm sure they knew exactly what they were doing when they created this year's game.)

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by swamp_child

As wildstang demonstrates in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS_I0cRmGIE) there is still going to be a huge advantage to anyone who has a crab drive system, perhaps this year more than ever

From watching this video and paying close attention to the robots modules and movement, I'd say they were driving around with the wheels fixed. It either that or they are using the crab to mimic car steering. At no point in this video does the bot "strafe" as crabs usually do.

hence its just like any 4wd tank or car style setup most teams can build.

if anyone from 111 cares to elaborate on what system was actually being used during this test, feel free to chime in.

we ran a 4wd robot longways oriented today and we had just as much control over motion as wildstang did in the video fyi.

[Uberbots]

To the OP:

I think you are horrendously mistaken. First off, the data. You are basing your assumptions on a simple video posted by WildStang demonstrating their crab drive and the false assumption that beta-testers get more resources (which ewas already discussed previously). Wildstang's youtube video demonstrates little about the dynamics that will be present in the game. furthermore, they give you no data about the test performed, it looks like they added a bunch of weight to their robot, and the trailer is not to specification. even more, their turning still leaves much to be desired.

Second of all, this is a "curveball" that the GDC has thrown at us. By changing the surface that we have grown so accustomed to, they have essentially told us to stop using what has worked in the past and think of something that will work better in a low friction environment. they are begging us to solve the issue of slow turning and acceleration. They are begging us to use the camera to create an innovative shooter/unloader system that can deal with moving targets. They are begging us to turn this ice rink into an asphalt racing stadium.

Sure, Wildstang could go out and use their crab drive system. But i dont think they would, because in doing this they would be discouraging themselves of thinking of a better way of moving around. It is completely likely that any team (even a rookie team) could think of a method of moving around that could give them split second turning and high-friction like accelerations and would be able to outrun anybody and anything.

in my opinion, FIRST is stressing the I in their name more than ever this year. make 'em proud.

[Akash Rastogi]

Are you seriously kidding me?

This game, by far, is too leveled, if anything...but that's a story for another thread here.

[AdamHeard]

swamp_child.

If you look back a few months in CD media, you'll find some pics of 973's KingKrab, and a linked youtube video. I'm not showing off, just establishing myself and my team now fully understand crabs, we have built a crab, and it's a good crab (I'd like to think).

Will we be using a crabdrive this year? Nope.

The crabdrive's advantage is largely negated by the trailer, you must not have seen a video of a skid-steer pulling a trailer, as it didn't look much different. A crab will be a little better at manuevering during initial turns I imagine, but not substantially better overall.

On top of that, A crab is substantially heavier than a skid-steer. Advanced Teams may be able to make a crab weigh as little as the average team's skid-steer, but not as light as a that same team could build a skid steer.

Not to mention the limits on ball pickup, the combination of the physical shape of crab modules, their mounting system, the bumper rules, and the size limitations will make a crab less than ideal for ball pickup.

And then, aside from all that, you shouldn't criticize the GDC for rules that are merely affecting gameplay. As far as I know, they don't get paid, and if anything only get grief from their family and spouses for the long hours they must put it. On top of that, it must be $@#$@#$@#$@# near impossible to design a game, you may disagree, but you should try it once. I imagine 100k people lawyering your rules, complaining about the rules or just saying how boring it is will prove you wrong.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

And then, aside from all that, you shouldn't criticize the GDC for rules that are merely affecting gameplay. As far as I know, they don't get paid, and if anything only get grief from their family and spouses for the long hours they must put it. On top of that, it must be $@#$@#$@#$@# near impossible to design a game, you may disagree, but you should try it once. I imagine 100k people lawyering your rules, complaining about the rules or just saying how boring it is will prove you wrong.

I agree with Adam.

Last year, I tried rewriting part of Section 8 to remove a circular definition. I had help, and I got the intended result. It took a while, though. I still think someone could find a loophole. This year, the GDC removed said circular definition with a single change that made it darn near bulletproof.

I will give you all a challenge if you are complaining about the GDC and their rules/rulings. Are you ready?

Design and submit a complete game, including at least an outline of sections 6, 7, and 8, to the "YOU design the 2010 Game!" thread(s) when those are released. You currently have about 4 months, if history is correct. I think that's about how long the GDC has to do more than that, once they really get down to work, but they have experience, so it's still pretty fair.

Try to include all the elements you can in your consideration: rookies, veterans, control system capabilities, fields, robots, etc. We'll leave out any restrictions that are outside of teams and FIRST's control. Good luck.