GDC you have failed us.

[dtengineering]

Every year we see posts like this in the first week saying how bad the game will be, or how unfair that rule will be... and then everyone goes out and has a good time.

Teams will note that it has been mentioned several times that a clean, waxed linoleum floor (gee... don't suppose there are any of those available in schools...) will be a quite suitable stand in for the playing field material.

Aside from that, you are right... the great teams in FRC will probably continue to be great teams. That is because they have great people who embrace the challenge rather than whine about it. And thank goodness there are powerhouse teams out there... they set a great example and inspire the rest of us to greater heights.

Jason

[martin417]

Originally Posted by swamp_child

I keep hearing people say that the GDC has leveled the playing field this year, however I feel this is simply not true. While it is true that we are playing on a totally different surface, there are still many, many aspects a rookie team will not be able to over come.
As wildstang demonstrates in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS_I0cRmGIE) there is still going to be a huge advantage to anyone who has a crab drive system, perhaps this year more than ever (as discussed in another thread simple tank drive is going to have tons of problems this year). Additionally we are starting with a whole new programming platform, however this platform was beta tested by many teams, all of which are many year veteran teams.
I could rant on for quite a while about this, and if anyone wants me to expand upon any of my points, go ahead and ask, and I'll do my best to explain. But come on people this game isn't leveling anything, if anything it's just broadening the gulf between the vets and rookies.

To the topic at hand! Please do research before you post a broad statement like this! Just watching the video it was obvious to me that this bot is a 4WD tank drive bot. To be sure, I visited wildstang's website, but found no info on the 2008 bot. On to the Blua alliance, where they have a nifty feature, "photos of 111 on chiefdelph" there I found sevral pictures of 111's 2008 bot that confirmed it is a 4WD tank drive, not a crab drive.

So the video you posted in support of your argument is actually is a dispute of your arument.

[NoodleKnight]

Originally Posted by bduddy

(Rant copied and pasted from another topic-I've been ranting quite a bit lately, forgive me for recycling )

The obvious effort to even the playing field in this game is, while well-intentioned, going to have the opposite effect. It is strikingly similar to what has happened in Formula 1, which used to be practically open in terms of car and engine design. However, lately there have been increasing efforts at regulation and standardization-some of them have been for safety and some to cut costs, but many have had as a stated goal the improvement of competition. However, they have had the opposite effect. In the past, teams could come up with really innovative ideas to provide an advantage, and many did; famous examples of which include the Tyrell P34 and the Brabham BT46B "fan car", which ironically enough is apparently banned in this competition just as it was in real life. These days, however, in order to eke out any improvement, F1 teams must do hours upon hours of expensive wind tunnel work, use gigantic simulators to test any part thoroughly before even considering trying it, and basically spending millions upon millions of dollars for improvements of tenths of seconds.

Lunacy will be similar-IMO, the most important factors in this game will be the human player, the drivetrain, programming, and the driver. The first factor is essentially a wash, despite some concerns over "basketball players" or the like. But the rest will not be. Sure, many teams will have to rethink their drivetrain and we will thankfully see the disappearance of the "trick" wheels, but the veteran teams will still have an advantage. We all know that. Programming will be even worse-I'm sure you have all seen the talk about here about traction control, anti-lock braking, and all the other three-letter abbreviations standard on new cars of the day. How do expect any programmer new to FRC to handle any of that? And given the new surface and quickly disappearing game pieces, the only drivers that will have much practice will be the ones on teams that can afford the game field, and in these economic times, there are not many of those.

Sorry for the big quote, but insomnia and lack of sleep has gotten to me and I can't be bothered to edit. Proper punctuation and grammar is already hard enough

I have to say, I quite like this year's game. Makes me wish I still was in FIRST, but well, 3 years into college and I don't even have time to help mentor a team. You do know the changes in F1 were done to help level the playing field for new teams? Same reason why WRC went to S2000 rules. Reduce cost and complexity for new teams to emerge. Same concept with the 2009 game.
I do agree with you about the limiting of innovation, but only for motorsports. That's a whole story in itself, but with FIRST it's totally different. In the past FIRST has only really banned specific innovations because it's not safe or it's causing problems (like the use of filecards for traction in 2002, and the entanglement rule).
It's true that racing teams have to spend countless hours on engine dynos and windtunnels to extract milliseconds off of lap times, but that's because motorsports technology is quite advanced and has reached a peak. The competition has been the same for year on end, you race a car around a track. With most large technological innovations already discovered, it's going to take a lot of work to produce a significantly less amount of achievement... basically technological advancement is reaching the peak of it's curve where more work equals less result.
But it's different with FIRST, the game changes every year. More so with this year, as mentioned above they've pretty much wiped the slate clean. If anything this competition will give rookie teams more of a chance to catch up. For years there has been more or less a "right" way to build a drivetrain (take 254 for example, or I guess what's called the west coast drivetrain). That 6wd platform has been serving many teams well, which is great. But this game has nerfed it, quite a bit. I can see making some people unhappy because well, now they have to redesign their drivetrain. But that's part of the challenge right? Everyone else has to redesign their drivetrain, no one has the advantage of a knowing how to build and execute a battle hardened system, so I see that as lessening the advantage gap between the veteran teams and the rookie teams.
It's undeniable that veteran teams will always have some advantage over a rookie team, but this applies everywhere. Just be happy that this is FIRST, where veteran teams are willing to help rookie teams that ask for help. In professional motorsports it's not as nice.

Ultimately, in my opinion. It's great that FIRST has managed to close the gap between this advantage without stomping on too many people's toes. I noticed that someone mentioned in a different thread about a lack of defense. Defense is fun alright, being destructive in a legitimate way is always entertaining but well, that's not very challenging, haha. Defense isn't really gone, I think FIRST has just been doing what they've been trying to do and make it less of a contact-ordeal and more of a strategic defense ordeal.

Lastly I don't really see the significant advantage with a swerve drive system, especially in the video posted. The competition trailer has fixed wheels for starters, along with a lot more weight. The threads posting about tank steering having problems is only an advisory that using old methods is no longer going to cut it, goes back to what I tried to explain above. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Anyways wow that was a big mess, sorry... For those who managed to read through it all I applaud you. For those who managed to read and understand it... well I guess I can give you a pat on the back.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by martin417

I found sevral pictures of 111's 2008 bot that confirmed it is a 4WD tank drive, not a crab drive.

I have seen Wildstang's 2008 bot in person. It is definitely a crab drive, and one of the finest I've ever seen.

For what it's worth, though, it is possible that they are not actually rotating the crab modules in that video.

[martin417]

Originally Posted by jgannon

I have seen Wildstang's 2008 bot in person. It is definitely a crab drive, and one of the finest I've ever seen.

For what it's worth, though, it is possible that they are not actually rotating the crab modules in that video.

My apologies. Upon closer inspection, it does appear that the 111 2008 bot is a Crab drive design. In the video however, you can see the bot turning like a tank drive bot. Are they steering the front and rear wheels independently, or are they just leaving the wheels centered and using it as a tank drive?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

OK,
The video is merely showing one robot driving around on a large surface of the material used in this year's game. Thanks to one of our parents for having a few pieces stored in his shop from a previous project. The robot shown has crab (because we had one that used the same wheel mounts as this year) but everyone must understand, this is day three driving and practice has not even begun to make a dent in driving performance. Of course the trailer is not competition because we (like you) are prototyping to understand the dynamics of the floor and the movements of a robot with trailer attached. This is using an IFI control system with no code modifications. We used a heavy steel drum dolly with sticky wheels to simulate the weight and charachteristics of a trailer bolted to the frame. And to be sure, we are not giving out hints to our design, it's only Day three! We are still brainstorming.
The GDC has made a simple game a challenge by the selection of floor surface that is the real challenge. The same challenge all of us face. We don't know if crab will be an advantage or if tank drive will win out. Since manipulators that extend away from the robot are not allowed (see Team Update 1) then teams that are good at manipulator design won't have an advantage. This game is about the best level field I have seen in 14 games and I love that human players are more part of the equation.
I will make this prediction (begging forgiveness from the Great Car Nack) teams that will do well will have practiced like crazy. As the adage goes... "How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, Practice, Practice!"

[Enigma's puzzle]

The part of that video that Everyone is over looking is the Trailer, They are pulling a trailer with CASTERS, they don't have a fixed wheeled trailer. Wait until you see the first video with a fixed wheeled trailer and crab drive, they will have trouble because their entire program will be messed up because the fixed wheeled trailer is a whole different ball game, The will lose the ability to back up over a foot with any accuracy because the trailer will jack knife after a foot.

Yes they were running a tank drive i believe, the crab modules didn't move.
But when they drive tank drive they steer the right and left independently.

[Tom Line]

I find the challenges this year intriguing.

How do you coordinate with your teammates task-wise? Defense, offense, supercells? That will require many different auton options and start locations.

How do maximize your driving potential? Practice. ABS. Traction Control. Weight distribution.

How do you minimize people scoring on you? Strategy while driving.

Do you focus on stuffing someone in a corner so your human can score? Even just a drivetrain robot will be able to interfere and slow others down.

No... I see a game with infinite intricacies. I'm hoping that the more competitive regionals result in a bunch of robots driving around with camera focussed turrets firing balls like machine guns.

It's like halo on ice....

[JesseK]

I see 111's video itself as inspiring...though we won't ever have the chance to put our hybrid drive train against theres unless we see them in Atlanta. Rookie teams will always be rookie teams no matter what -- most will be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of data that's out there for solving the game. A few of those will understand that for the moment, simple is better. It's expected, and has always been as 'level' of a playing field as the GDC can hope for with Rookies.

For the rest of us, we can get creative to come up with inexpensive, simple solutions to drive around on this surface, so that's what we should do. My team has taken on a huge challenge of a somewhat new, radical drive train that's only been seen once in FRC before. I didn't present the idea to them until January 3rd at about 7pm. Every day we question ourselves on whether we've made the right decision, but then at the end of every day I relax knowing that we've solved every problem the drive train design has given us with a simple solution.

Had the GDC not forced a wacky field into this game, I seriously doubt the other lead mentors on our team would have ever been motivated to try something that wasn't simple or easy to do for a drive train. So to me, the GDC has surpassed my expectations.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Its 1992.

Well then about 10 teams are at an advantage. ;P

[Enigma's puzzle]

Originally Posted by JesseK

My team has taken on a huge challenge of a somewhat new, radical drive train that's only been seen once in FRC before. I didn't present the idea to them until January 3rd at about 7pm.

You cant say that now i want to know (pulling hair out)

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Enigma's puzzle

You cant say that now i want to know (pulling hair out)

Nothing until the prototype is done! If we release it early we're open to everyone's opinions on it. For the moment I don't want the students on my team overwhelmed with the opinions or anecdotal conjectures of additional problems we may or may not encounter further down the road.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Nothing until the prototype is done! If we release it early we're open to everyone's opinions on it. For the moment I don't want the students on my team overwhelmed with the opinions or anecdotal conjectures of additional problems we may or may not encounter further down the road.

Finish your prototype soon! I think most of us are eagerly awaiting the unveil of the clever design we keep hearing about. Innovation is exciting.

[Tetraman]

I consider Overdrive to have been a much harder game for rookies and low-tier teams then Lunacy will be.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

I consider Overdrive to have been a much harder game for rookies and low-tier teams then Lunacy will be.

Just curious, but what's the reasoning behind that?