QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!

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Posted by Andy Grady at 2/11/2001 5:24 PM EST


Other on team #126, Gael Force, from Clinton High School and Nypro Inc..



Hi all, here is the question of the week...

Question 2/11/01: How should the divisions be set for the nationals? Totally random, Semi-random, not random at all? Any ideas?

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Posted by Brian at 2/11/2001 5:34 PM EST


Student on team #56, Robbe Xtreme, from Bound Brook High School and Ethicon Inc..


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!
Posted by Andy Grady on 2/11/2001 5:24 PM EST:



I have no clue how but it should be random to ensure fairness to all teams...

Brian

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Posted by Mike Soukup at 2/11/2001 6:05 PM EST


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling and Motorola.


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!
Posted by Andy Grady on 2/11/2001 5:24 PM EST:



It should be random, but it won't be.

Mike

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Posted by Rob Zeuge at 2/11/2001 6:05 PM EST


Coach on team #121, Rhode Warrior, from University of Rhode Island and Naval Undersea Warfare Center.


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!
Posted by Andy Grady on 2/11/2001 5:24 PM EST:



I know alot of people may think this sounds unfair at first, but I believe that an all rookie division might be a good thing. Not only would this give rookies a chance to work together, it would ensure that there are a certain number of rookies who may not have the experience neccisary to be noticed in a sea of amazing veteran teams competing in the elimination rounds. I think it would be kinda cool if the national champions were all rookies!

Best of luck to all!!

Rob Zeuge
rzeu0470@postoffice.uri.edu

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Posted by Lora Knepper at 2/11/2001 7:02 PM EST


Other on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Rochester Institute of Technology / Edison Tech HS and Alstom and Fiber Technologies.


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!
Posted by Andy Grady on 2/11/2001 5:24 PM EST:



Ugh, I'm the biggest opponant of regionalizing Nats out there (I think)....but yes, even I realize that we have to do it somehow. *cringes*

So I guess if it *has* to be done, than completely and totally random is the way to go.

~ lora

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Posted by Chris Orimoto at 2/11/2001 8:08 PM EST


Student on team #368, Kika Mana, from McKinley High School and Nasa Ames/Hawaiian Electric/Weinberg Foundation.


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!
Posted by Andy Grady on 2/11/2001 5:24 PM EST:



Although I won't even BE at the nationals, I think it should be completely separated at random.

Just my personal thoughts...

Chris, #368

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Posted by mike oleary at 2/11/2001 8:32 PM EST


Student on team #419, rambots, from bc high.


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!
Posted by Andy Grady on 2/11/2001 5:24 PM EST:



: Hi all, here is the question of the week...

: Question 2/11/01: How should the divisions be set for the nationals? Totally random, Semi-random, not random at all? Any ideas?

how would you go about making something semi-random?
mike

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Posted by Tim Baird at 2/11/2001 9:15 PM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!
Posted by Andy Grady on 2/11/2001 5:24 PM EST:



: Hi all, here is the question of the week...

: Question 2/11/01: How should the divisions be set for the nationals? Totally random, Semi-random, not random at all? Any ideas?

I'm totally against the divisions at the nationals, but if they do, it should be divided into the four like they declared, but pick the teams in the random fashion of going 1,2,3,4, then going 1,2,3,4 until you give all the teams a number. This way, you will have a completely random and fair division of the teams, with each division having a fairly even number of veterans and rookies alike. Just a thought on my part. Either way, see everyone at the nationals, or at the regionals if you plan on being at utc and long island.
Tim Baird

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Posted by Jessica Boucher at 2/11/2001 9:33 PM EST


Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.


In Reply to: Re: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!
Posted by Tim Baird on 2/11/2001 9:15 PM EST:



In statistics, its called an SRS (Standardized Random Sample).

Say there are 345 teams at Nats. Each team is given a number from 001 to 345. From there, there are two ways to pick numbers, either with something called a "Table B" which is a table of random digits (where you count the numbers by hand....not fun), or through a calculator program that can be found on almost any graphing calculator.

The first 86.25 teams (ok, so maybe 345 was a weird number....lets say 86 in three regions, 87 in the fourth) will be in the first region. The next 86 will be in the second.....if a number comes up twice, it is skipped the second time.

Hope this helps, I'm guessing that's how they'll do it.

-Jessica B, #237

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Posted by Matt Leese at 2/11/2001 10:11 PM EST


Other on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Edison Technical HS and Alstom & Fiber Technologies & RIT.


In Reply to: Its called an SRS....
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 2/11/2001 9:33 PM EST:



I don't think it's called a "Table B" instead I think that's just how it's labeled in your book. The way these "random" numbers are calculated involve numerous different algorithms. I use random in quotes because the numbers are only psuedo-random and not truly random. However, given a good algorithm and good seed values you can create "random-enough" numbers for most purposes. As far as FIRST is concerned just about any algorithm will do as long as it isn't rigged. The randomness of numbers only comes into play with games and more importantly computer security and cryptography.

Matt

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Posted by Lora Knepper at 2/12/2001 6:18 PM EST


Other on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Rochester Institute of Technology / Edison Tech HS and Alstom and Fiber Technologies.


In Reply to: Re: Its called an SRS....
Posted by Matt Leese on 2/11/2001 10:11 PM EST:



Nitpicking ;o) And just to stick up for Jess, It's Table B in my stats book 2...so she's not alone. (Though more commenly called a Random Digit table)

Oh and Jess? Saw the Stats reference and I knew it was you before looking at the name ;o)

~ lora (also in AP Statistics - not entirely sure if that's a good thing)

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Posted by Joe Johnson at 2/11/2001 10:09 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!
Posted by Andy Grady on 2/11/2001 5:24 PM EST:



I am a big fan of the division system at the Nationals.
There are a lot of positive benefits, but that is a
topic for another day. One disagreement I have with
how they are doing the divisions is that only 2
Alliances are selected to play for division championship.
It is pretty clear to me that it should be 4 alliances,
but what do I know?

Back to the topic at hand, I think that FIRST should
take all the teams that won regionals and randomly
divide this group. Next they should take all the
regional runners up and do the same, followed by the
regional semi-finalists, and finally the teams that did
not make it to the elimination rounds.

This proposal does not ensure that the distribution
among divisions is uniform but it does make it more likely.

Joe J.

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Posted by Mike Soukup at 2/12/2001 10:23 AM EST


Engineer on team #111, Wildstang, from Rolling Meadows & Wheeling and Motorola.


In Reply to: A proposal for dividing the teams...
Posted by Joe Johnson on 2/11/2001 10:09 PM EST:



I'm not sure if that's exactly how they're doing it, but I heard from someone who talked to Eric from FIRST that they're using a semi-random method. Somehow they'll try to split up the talent to make sure each division is fairly represented.

Mike

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Posted by Andy Baker at 2/12/2001 11:24 AM EST


Engineer on team #45, TechnoKats, from Kokomo High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: A proposal for dividing the teams...
Posted by Joe Johnson on 2/11/2001 10:09 PM EST:



The regional winners and runners-up can be evenly distributed among the 4 regions... that makes sense to me.

But with the other teams who will be "randomly" distributed among the four regions, FIRST should use the lottery suggestion brought up by Mike Ciavaglia 8 (or so) months ago.

I can see us all congregating in Einstein on Thursday night, waiting for our team's number to be allocated to a region. With 340 teams, this may take a while, but that's OK. Sounds like a good time to me!

Andy

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Posted by Lora Knepper at 2/12/2001 6:22 PM EST


Other on team #73, Tigerbolt, from Rochester Institute of Technology / Edison Tech HS and Alstom and Fiber Technologies.


In Reply to: Evenly distribution combined with a lottery
Posted by Andy Baker on 2/12/2001 11:24 AM EST:



: I can see us all congregating in Einstein on Thursday night, waiting for our team's number to be allocated to a region. With 340 teams, this may take a while, but that's OK. Sounds like a good time to me!

: Andy


Talk about anticipation as you wait to see what teams you are in a division with! Seeing if you are with teams that are most complimentary with your particular bot..... Hope I can get to Nats this year!

~ lora