Picking up balls or not

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Freeztech

I think you guys are missing a point here. if you aim not to pick up and score balls, you become a defender. As a defender you want to do whatever possible to prevent the opposing alliance from scoring.

If you're a defender, you can try to control the position of yours opponents. Keep them near your payload specialists, keep them away from their empty cells, etc.
It's not just defending your own trailer.

[kevin.li.rit]

I think being able to collect the balls is important. I believe herding will be difficult since we are unable to expand. I find it highly likely your lose balls when herding.

Also things like to end up at the point of lowest potential so there will probably be a decent amount of cells on the floor.

[Arefin Bari]

Hmm... how about not really collecting the balls from the floor and not really getting them from human player? Have a mechanism in front that's spinning at 5,000 rpm and has little forks. I am sure you will be throwing lots of balls into the audience. You will be the crowd's favorite.

[guakam0li1089]

i only read the first few posts and im not sure if anyone said this, but just remember that the hp's accuracy isnt going to be as good as 06. this is because of the wall in front oh him/her that he/she has to ark the ball over

[JesseK]

edit -- whoops, s_forbes beat me to it! See <G05> from the 2006 rules.

If a team chooses not to pick up off the floor simply because it's too complex for the capabilities of the build team, that's a great strategy move; if they do it well they will complement their alliance greatly. Otherwise, picking up from the floor is, in my opinion, a MUST DO for the last 30 seconds of the game for at least 1 bot on every alliance.

[Bongle]

Originally Posted by guakam0li1089

i only read the first few posts and im not sure if anyone said this, but just remember that the hp's accuracy isnt going to be as good as 06. this is because of the wall in front oh him/her that he/she has to ark the ball over

The safety shield ("Alliance Station Wall") was there in 2006 as well, and was the same height (6.5 feet) as this year.

[Swampdude]

Personally I think the scores will be about the same for for every match, and the only difference will be the extra balls picked up and scored from the ground, or super cells. We've built the goal and moved it around and found it not that difficult to shoot, therefore usually all 6 teams will average out the same in PS shots (barring exceptional or poor shooters). Therefore if your alliance bots aren't affecting the score and the other alliances are, you will lose. With all the movement on the field herding is kind of automatic and unintentional, so designing for that is kind of redundant.

[EricVicenti]

Keep in mind, in order to load your robot from the payload specialist, you must stand still, something making you an extremely attractive target in this game, either for the opposing payload specialists or for the opposing bots. There is nowhere to hide.

[Killraine]

Originally Posted by darthfroggy

so a big debate in my team is whether or not to pick up a ball. i agrgue that it is what sets apart the men from the boys, and will be a crucial part of winning. One of our members, and our coach says that picking up the ball will happen twice in the game at most and will be a space waster.
Let me know what you think, i need better arguments for why we should pick up a ball.

Josh "Froggy" Dennison
1525 Warbots

If those people think you will only have the opportunity to pick up twice during a match, I would argue that they are horribly mistaken. Consider for a second the number of balls in play. Even if only 10 balls from each team ends up on the floor, that is still 60 balls available for gathering. I think there will be a multitude of balls on the floor with the misses from hp's and bots. Let's not forget that we will be shooting at moving targets either from a moving bot, over a 6.5" wall, or from a seated position. How about the autonomous modes that try to score their 7 starting balls in an enemy? From my experience with autonomous, it is more likely than not that this will lead to 7 balls on the floor.

Just my 2 cents.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by EricVicenti

Keep in mind, in order to load your robot from the payload specialist, you must stand still, something making you an extremely attractive target in this game, either for the opposing payload specialists or for the opposing bots. There is nowhere to hide.

You can do a lot to reduce the accuracy of opposing PSs, if you think about it. At long ranges, simply moving semi-erratically will be more than sufficient. When you're at a dead stop being loaded by your PS, you can pretty easily make things very difficult on the opponent PS that's behind the same alliance station. If you slide in sideways or back in so your trailer is snug against the wall, it's going to be a much trickier shot for that PS. If you back in, you can make it trickier for the OUTPOST PS and robots to score on you as well, though you're then making it a little tougher for your PS to reload you.

Still, if you work the angles and field elements appropriately, sitting still doesn't have to equate with being a super easy target.

[Bob Steele]

I think that what is critical is to come up with a strategy for your team.
Assess what your resources are... can you build 2-3 different mechanisms?
Can you build 1-2 mechanisms? How much money do you have?

These all play into picking a strategy.

In ANY strategy ... being able to pick up balls is going to be a plus.
NOW that said, It is NOT a requirement for many strategies.

Don't try and use AIM HIGH as an example because human players did not score in AIM HIGH... and the other major difference (also pointed out already) is that the balls were recycled... so if you were getting scored on ..you had plenty to load up your robots...

But AIM HIGH IS a good example of the diversity in robots and how several different strategies can be employed to help an alliance win.

Pick a good strategy...figure out what it takes to accomplish the strategy...
Prioritize your mechanisms.....
Make hard decisions as the weeks go by...

but Pick a Good Strategy... stick with it and make it drive your design.
Please Please Please... don't mix up mechanisms with strategies...

Design cannot drive strategy...

It is my belief that there will space on the field for a number of good strategies...some of which don't require picking up the balls from the floor...

I also think that several very sound strategies depend on picking up balls from the floor.

thanks and good luck !!!

[JCrom]

I think it is important when comparing to 2006 to keep in mind that there are 50% more balls on the field this year than in 2006. What this means is up to you.

Despite this, balls will be much more of a commodity this year than in 06. Your team has 60 balls to start off with, and thats it. Whether you shoot those balls from your robot or your human player when your run out, thats it. Unlike in 06 when you could count on more balls coming in from the other team.

Lets assume that between HPs and bots, each aliance has an 80% accuracy.
At this point the teams are tied and out of balls.

The difference between which alliance wins, and which loses will be the one the one that can get those 20% missed balls from both teams off the floor and into the opposing robot.

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

You can do a lot to reduce the accuracy of opposing PSs, if you think about it. At long ranges, simply moving semi-erratically will be more than sufficient. When you're at a dead stop being loaded by your PS, you can pretty easily make things very difficult on the opponent PS that's behind the same alliance station. If you slide in sideways or back in so your trailer is snug against the wall, it's going to be a much trickier shot for that PS. If you back in, you can make it trickier for the OUTPOST PS and robots to score on you as well, though you're then making it a little tougher for your PS to reload you.

Still, if you work the angles and field elements appropriately, sitting still doesn't have to equate with being a super easy target.

This means all those valuable missed balls from the other team are sitting on the floor!

Every ball of theirs you score is one less they have to score on you!

Just my 2 cents.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by JCrom

This means all those valuable missed balls from the other team are sitting on the floor!

Every ball of theirs you score is one less they have to score on you!

Just my 2 cents.

More generally:
Every ball you remove from play is one less they have to score against you.

If you're ahead on points, hoarding balls is a good strategy. Scoring them isn't necessarily as important as keeping your opponents from scoring them. Herding/vacuuming well is good defense, as long as you're not missing your shots on your opponent.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

If you're ahead on points, hoarding balls is a good strategy.

Interesting point... By itself it is a great strategy until the endgame hits. If you estimate that you're up by 20 points, you could easily lose because of 2 super cells and being out-maneuvered in the second half of the match.

I suppose it'd have to be a game-time decision as to whether to take the risk; on the one hand you may be able to score your entire hopper in the last 20 seconds to negate the super cells. On the other hand, teams may start pinning bots that hoard game pieces, as was seen in 2005.

Hmmmm.

[Rick Wagner]

If your robot can't pick up balls, herding them out of the way of opposing robots that can pick them up will be a good thing to do. I think we might see some drivers skilled at the broadside skid. Run the robot up to speed, aim at a group of balls to herd toward your corner, then skid the robot sideways using the broadside of the robot and trailer to herd the balls.