pic: 397 Bumper Configuration

[Woody1458]

if I were you guys I would put a horizontal path for balls in front of the wall, if just 8" long. I think you may be hitting balls faster then they would be sucked up and you will not get as many balls as you could.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

It'd be pretty upsetting if the GDC reverses what they've already stated very clearly. All corners, both sides, 6 inches. It's intent has been pretty clear in the rules. That still leaves you 16 inches on a long robot to get a ball.

"Wrapping" the string so it touches just the outside edges of your robot and defining that as the bumper perimeter has been pretty well understood too (in my opinion).

If this suddenly changes to allow teams more leeway, other teams that have made serious design decisions that can't be changed would be rather disadvantaged.

I couldn't agree more. If they change I will be very upset and requesting extra build time!

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Abwehr

To all with a vested interest in the answer to this question:

Expect the GDC to make a ruling on this specific situation by Friday. Enough teams have asked direct questions in the Q&A forum that this specific case will be discussed at the GDC telecon on Thursday (in preparation for Friday's team update).

And you know this because... ?

Making blanket statements about what the GDC will or won't do, and on what schedule, is perhaps a bit presumptuous. A wise person, even if acting upon inside information obtained through unofficial backchannels, would probably remain silent on this topic lest his prognostication not bear fruit. This would be particularly true when the schedule for any such discussions might be altered for any of a considerable number of very valid reasons (as has already happened several times). Likewise, anyone that had obtained such inside information would be wise to keep it to themselves lest they find that, having proved that they cannot keep such information to themselves, their backchannel might be slammed shut and never to re-open.





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[Stuart]

I think the only thing making it NOT legal is the shortness of the front 2 stubs. The inner slants I don't think count as bumpers because they are not "the outer-most set of exterior vertices", they are just extra safety for the field.

Least I hope thats the only reason. We at 1745 have a very similar frame( but our short stubs are greater than 6".

As for the GDC making a ruling on this. I personal do think this will happen( not that I have inside information . . cause I don't). but mainly because figure 8-2 has an angled frame and it shows the line to follow the angles( granted they are outward angles) . . that picture does kinda muck things up and you know what they say about pictures vs words.

...If FIRST doesn't want us to lawyer their rules, then why do they make them so damned hard to understand? I mean honestly, if you don't want us snaking for loopholes, make the rules clear! This bumper fiasco is meant to keep our robots safe, but instead end up hindering so many teams. If FIRST wishes that competition be boiled down to a bunch of driving boxes, they'll get what they've had last year: A game that was boring to watch.

</crotchety complainer>

I'm going back to building....

[Scott Hill]

Precision in communication in any endeavour is as important, if not more so, than precision in measuring or calculation, just to use 2 examples from engineering. You can do layout work with a knotted string or a digital caliper, with the performance of your resulting effort rewarded accordingly. Communication, on the written/spoken end, AND on the reading/listening end, is no different.

The precise use of language; the challenge of presenting requirements and ideas well, AND the challenge of interpreting those same requirements/ideas just as well, is one of my favorite aspects of FIRST, this game included, and the current bumper requirements included. So many people seem frustrated by this, I find it a joy and time passes without notice when I am helping my team determine the limits of the box they have given us within which to play this game.

Carefully reading and understanding the rules and subsequent commentary (without jumping to preconceived or hasty conclusions) is as important an aspect of this game as any other. If you carefully read the rules, the updates, and the Q&A I think you will find that the GDC has been very particular and very consistent in their writing of, commenting on, and answering of questions with respect to the bumpers.

Getting more specific with respect to bumpers, I believe the GDC has stated consistently that all sides of the robot must be protected by bumpers, I do not believe they have ever stated that all sides of the robot must have bumpers (if you look closely, there is an indication that they don't necessarily expect all sides of robots to have bumpers). The two statements do not communicate the same thing and the application of one versus the other can result in significantly different designs, one of which may have advantages over the other. What's the definition of protection of a side you may ask? It seems to me that the GDC states this very clearly when in the Competition Manual they write in <R08> ..."If implemented as intended, a ROBOT that is driven into a vertical wall in any normal PLAYING CONFIGURATION will always have the BUMPER be the first thing to contact the wall."... If you design your robots bumpers so that this is the case, then the side is protected, and protected per the manual requirement.

There is another bumper design concept, developed with what I would call a more comprehensive understanding of the rules, that has only been hinted at in these discussions (if you look carefully) and which I think will appear in significant numbers at competitions. So take off your lawyer hat, put on your Deer Stalker, and re-study the rules / comments.

"Lawyering the rules". I continue to be confused by this phrase in the context in which it is commonly used here. "Understanding, designing and engineering to the rules", is what my team strives for in our participation in FIRST. Too many times I think the phrase "lawyering the rules" is and will be used to denigrate good "understanding, design, and engineering to the rules". I hope this practice goes away.

In the spirit of great communication, GREAT fun, great design, and great engineering......... good luck to all in the pursuit of this challenge!

[MrForbes]

"Lawyering the rules" seems to me to refer to the practice of reading the rules with an interpretation that favors your design. The problem with any written language is that it is very difficult to make it precise and unambiguous. For example, my three sons and I were staring at the computer screen, reading a Q&A response, and two of us read it to mean one thing, the other two read it to mean the opposite. Avoiding this problem is a serious challenge that the GDC faces.

[Tom Line]

There is another bumper design concept, developed with what I would call a more comprehensive understanding of the rules, that has only been hinted at in these discussions (if you look carefully) and which I think will appear in significant numbers at competitions. So take off your lawyer hat, put on your Deer Stalker, and re-study the rules / comments.

Scott, are you perhaps talking about the idea of orienting your 6 inch bumper segment vertically? Since it only need be 5 inches wide in that case, you do gain 2 inches of opening in that manner.

However, there are several rules that may prohibit that configuration and make it reasonably clear that the intent is to NOT have your 6 inch bumper oriented vertically. Specifically:

B. BUMPERS must use a stacked pair of 2-1/2 inch “pool noodles” as the bumper material.
C. Each BUMPER segment must be backed by a piece of 3/4-inch thick by 5-inch tall piece of plywood.

They're not stacked if the bumper is vertical, and 5 inches tall is pretty specific.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by CraigHickman

...If FIRST doesn't want us to lawyer their rules, then why do they make them so damned hard to understand? I mean honestly, if you don't want us snaking for loopholes, make the rules clear! This bumper fiasco is meant to keep our robots safe, but instead end up hindering so many teams. If FIRST wishes that competition be boiled down to a bunch of driving boxes, they'll get what they've had last year: A game that was boring to watch.

I think they thought their rules were clear... but a group of 10000+ excited high school students can find holes in pretty much anything.

[Scott Hill]

Tom, sorry for the delay in reply, the job and working with the students in the bot shop take most of my time. That's not the idea. I think you answer your own question very well in finding the bumper configuration you describe to not be legal.