Go to Post "I have cut this piece 4 times and it is still too short!" - Betty_Krocker [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2009, 20:18
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,827
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 2009 - Live camera feed to drivers during a match?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanww View Post
*warning:theoreticallness ahead*

Since streaming of video isn't explicity prohibited in the rules
See my above post.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2009, 20:35
MikeDubreuil's Avatar
MikeDubreuil MikeDubreuil is offline
Carpe diem
FRC #0125 (Nu-Trons)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 967
MikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond reputeMikeDubreuil has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to MikeDubreuil
Re: 2009 - Live camera feed to drivers during a match?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
EDIT: Double apologies to Jon, but the GDC has made the ruling that it is legal. Practical remains an unknown factor.
From the GDC, "However, limitations on the data transfer rate provided by the wireless communication system may provide a practical limit on the effectiveness of the implementation."

Does this mean they are implementing limitations on the data transfer rate? Using their Cisco equipment they could easily cap the bandwidth to make it impossible for a team to transfer live video to the dashboard.
__________________
"FIRST is like bling bling for the brain." - Woodie Flowers
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2009, 21:57
MikeE's Avatar
MikeE MikeE is offline
Wrecking nice beaches since 1990
no team (Volunteer)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: New England -> Alaska
Posts: 381
MikeE has a reputation beyond reputeMikeE has a reputation beyond reputeMikeE has a reputation beyond reputeMikeE has a reputation beyond reputeMikeE has a reputation beyond reputeMikeE has a reputation beyond reputeMikeE has a reputation beyond reputeMikeE has a reputation beyond reputeMikeE has a reputation beyond reputeMikeE has a reputation beyond reputeMikeE has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 2009 - Live camera feed to drivers during a match?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
EDIT: Double apologies to Jon, but the GDC has made the ruling that it is legal. Practical remains an unknown factor.
I think it's more complete to say that the GDC has stated that it is legal, but they reserve the right to make it impractical
I wonder if "limitations on the data transfer rate provided by the wireless communication system" will become less onerous throughout the competition season?
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 14-01-2009, 11:26
Dave Flowerday Dave Flowerday is offline
Software Engineer
VRC #0111 (Wildstang)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Rookie Year: 1995
Location: North Barrington, IL
Posts: 1,366
Dave Flowerday has a reputation beyond reputeDave Flowerday has a reputation beyond reputeDave Flowerday has a reputation beyond reputeDave Flowerday has a reputation beyond reputeDave Flowerday has a reputation beyond reputeDave Flowerday has a reputation beyond reputeDave Flowerday has a reputation beyond reputeDave Flowerday has a reputation beyond reputeDave Flowerday has a reputation beyond reputeDave Flowerday has a reputation beyond reputeDave Flowerday has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 2009 - Live camera feed to drivers during a match?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeE View Post
I think it's more complete to say that the GDC has stated that it is legal, but they reserve the right to make it impractical
I wonder if "limitations on the data transfer rate provided by the wireless communication system" will become less onerous throughout the competition season?
I think most of you do not understand... the data transfer limit is already in place. You will NOT be allowed to stream from the camera directly to the driver's station. As posted a few times in other threads, ALL network traffic other than the robot control & dashboard traffic will be firewalled at the field. This means the only way you can get an image back from the camera is to take the camera data on the CRIO, pack it into the dashboard data structure that is allowed to be sent back, and unpack it at the other end. From what I understand, the amount of data that can be packed into the dashboard packet is a little under 1000 bytes. I don't know offhand how many times per second this packet is sent.

I think a lot of people don't realize (and FIRST has not made this very clear) that you will not be allowed to transmit whatever network traffic you like. You can do it at home for practice, but once you get to the field it will be blocked.
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2009, 20:29
Joe Ross's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Ross Joe Ross is offline
Registered User
FRC #0330 (Beachbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,602
Joe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 2009 - Live camera feed to drivers during a match?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday View Post
I think a lot of people don't realize (and FIRST has not made this very clear) that you will not be allowed to transmit whatever network traffic you like. You can do it at home for practice, but once you get to the field it will be blocked.
I'm glad that update 5 makes up for the GDC's previously vague answers.
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 20-01-2009, 22:56
pitzoid's Avatar
pitzoid pitzoid is offline
Registered User
AKA: BOB
no team (4FX Design)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 105
pitzoid is a glorious beacon of lightpitzoid is a glorious beacon of lightpitzoid is a glorious beacon of lightpitzoid is a glorious beacon of lightpitzoid is a glorious beacon of lightpitzoid is a glorious beacon of light
Re: 2009 - Live camera feed to drivers during a match?

Bandwidth from 6 robots while managing a field has always been the concern with going to the new WIFI system. Many factors including possible interferrence from venues and overall security weigh on this. Especially when looking at situations like Atlanta with 4 fields running at once. While the new fields are using the latest State of the Art Wifi, there has not been enough characterization done of what adding a real time video stream from each robot will do to the overall performance of controlling the bot over the WIFI simultaniously. We will be collecting data from all regionals through this season to see what the possible impacts are.

Begrudgingly, the decision was made to put off being able to stream video from bots through this current regional timeline. I have faith that we will prove it can be done reliably after getting data from all venues this year and using robot streaming video in the OFF SEASON so it can be utilized in future regional events.

BotBash BOB Pitzer
4FX Design
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-01-2009, 15:48
Rick Wagner's Avatar
Rick Wagner Rick Wagner is offline
Registered User
FRC #3008 (Kalani Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Posts: 188
Rick Wagner is a splendid one to beholdRick Wagner is a splendid one to beholdRick Wagner is a splendid one to beholdRick Wagner is a splendid one to beholdRick Wagner is a splendid one to beholdRick Wagner is a splendid one to beholdRick Wagner is a splendid one to behold
Re: 2009 - Live camera feed to drivers during a match?

Streaming video to the teleoperators will only contribute to pilot workload and doesn't take advantage of the robot's onboard processing capability. My team plans to use a single bit head-up display as we did in 2006. When the robot's locked on (distance and azimuth) and ready to shoot, an LED in the co-pilot's safety glasses will light up and the co-pilot can fire away.
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-01-2009, 16:53
EricVanWyk EricVanWyk is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 1,597
EricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond reputeEricVanWyk has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to EricVanWyk
Re: 2009 - Live camera feed to drivers during a match?

Quote:
Video is typically transmitted from the ROBOT by using the software ports specifically set up to support video throughput. This year, the Field Management System will not pass data sent through that port during a match (to ensure adequate system performance during competition events, until the new system is better characterized in actual competition settings). If a team really wants to transmit images from the camera back to the Driver Station during a competition, they can decompose the video frame and pass it as user data in the available 984 bytes per packet. However, the resulting throughput of the video will likely result in a frame rate so slow that it is not particularly useful.
You are given 984 bytes 50 times a second to do what ever you please with. Testing has already shown this to be very very very doable, and has been available to you from day 1.

If you want to send back sensor readings, go for it. If you want to send back internal state, go for it. If you want to send back a stream of robotics related limericks that are generated programmaticly in response to field conditions, go for it. You can even use it to send back video if you'd like.

However, 984 bytes at 50Hz is what you get. That won't fit full motion video, but it might be able to fit heavily compressed / decimated video. For example, you could easily send back a black/green/pink thresholded stream. If you are a total nutter, you could send back info on object positions to reconstruct a picture of what things should be on your laptop.

For reference, this is about 7 times faster than a 56k dial up modem. Enough to do a lot of cool stuff, not enough to be wasteful.
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 21-01-2009, 17:43
Jared Russell's Avatar
Jared Russell Jared Russell is offline
Taking a year (mostly) off
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs), FRC #0341 (Miss Daisy)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,082
Jared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 2009 - Live camera feed to drivers during a match?

This can lead to an interesting thought experiment.

* To be most useful, the images sent to the driver should be sent at reasonable video speeds (say 10 Hz or so)

* This means we need to be able to compress a single frame down to 5*984 bytes = 4920 bytes

* At 640x480x24 bits per pixel (standard RGB color), a single uncompressed image is 921,600 bytes.

* At 160x120 at 1 bit per pixel (binary black and white), a single uncompressed image still needs 2400 bytes. Hmm... We could even have 2 bits per pixel (4 shades of gray) and still fit under the limit.

Think about this one possible implementation: We have 5 different types of 984-byte packets. Each packet needs a header telling the dashboard PC which type it is, along with a frame number (to correlate out-of-order packets and drop old ones). It would also be helpful to have target positions (for, say, up to 3 targets we are tracking). Then comes the payload of raw image data (I want to avoid compression for now).

Implementation:

Packet 1:
1 byte for correlation (high 4 bits are the packet id (1); low 4 bits are the frame number that rolls over ever second and a half or so)

3 bytes for target #1:
+1 byte indicating which type of target, and whether or not it is visible
+1 byte indicating Y position in the frame
+1 byte indicating X position in the frame

3 bytes for target #2:
+1 byte indicating which type of target, and whether or not it is visible
+1 byte indicating Y position in the frame
+1 byte indicating X position in the frame

3 bytes for target #3:
+1 byte indicating which type of target, and whether or not it is visible
+1 byte indicating Y position in the frame
+1 byte indicating X position in the frame

974 bytes left over for payload data (first 1948 pixels of the image)...

Packets 2-5 would only need the 1 byte ID/frame #, and would have plenty of room left for the rest of the raw image data.

There are various methods for generating your 2-bit thresholded image; many are fairly inexpensive in terms of processing time.

---

I'm not sure about the utility of it, but I think that this shows that you might be able to get away with some "video" this year.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WATCH LIVE FEED FROM OUR MEETING Raikon General Forum 9 05-02-2008 22:18
live feed? miop Programming 1 02-02-2008 21:24
Live Feed Regional Comps, When and Where JasJ002 Regional Competitions 3 28-02-2007 14:07
Viewing camera image during the match Tt321b Rules/Strategy 1 11-02-2007 16:58
Transponder info for live feed... archiver 2000 1 23-06-2002 22:14


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:47.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi