Teamwork Strategy for Scoring

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by smurfgirl

I'm not under the impression that there is really that much difference in driving on carpet vs. regolith- the rover wheels are a much bigger factor than floor surface.

I disagree - with the robot off, if we hand-push the robot on linoleum, the wheels don't turn the transmission gears. If we hand-push the robot on carpet, the sprockets turn. The wheels are grippier on carpet than they are on regolith.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by Taylor

I disagree - with the robot off, if we hand-push the robot on linoleum, the wheels don't turn the transmission gears. If we hand-push the robot on carpet, the sprockets turn. The wheels are grippier on carpet than they are on regolith.

Well yes, I realize they are grippier on carpet, but from what I've heard about people testing their robots in both situations, its not as much of a difference as people are speculating. A situation I see described a lot is one of a robot pushing match where a weaker robot gets pushed by a stronger robot onto the carpet, where it regains so much traction that it overcomes the stronger one and gets back onto the regolith, then gets pushed back, etc. I don't think this is going to happen as much as people predict- there are other driving dynamics, such as the trailers, the robots slipping around each other sideways rather than a strictly linear pushing match, and the real difference in pushing power of the robots compared with how much traction the carpet will add. I'm not saying the dynamics of carpeting and regolith are identical, but rather that I don't think they're as astronomically different as some people thought (especially toward the beginning when not much testing had been done).

[Rick Wagner]

Having given it some more thought after a couple of days, it seems to me that super cell scoring in the last 20 seconds will decide a large number of matches, if not most of them. This would seem to nullify any objections to vulnerability to robot scoring while pinning an opposing robot while the PS scores.

That is, during the last 20 seconds, it's not likely that there will be enough time to feed super cells to robots to then score, so the real danger will be from the fueling station PS. The key tactic will be to recognize which PSs have super cells and then take offensive/defensive action as necessary. It's a great opportunity for two alliance partners to shove a robot/trailer into a corner while a sharp shooting PS easily scores two super cells. I think we will see this tactic performed again and again, and then we will see coordinated defenses evolve to defeat it.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Rick Wagner

You got it. I think teamworking alliances will dominate this year.

This is a very general statement that is true every year. Last year, we had alliance plans down to which ball each team would get, which lane to score in, and who would play defense. If you do not work together before a match, it really shows on the field.

[MattB703]

Here is another thought;

It will be much easier to stop a robot for a few seconds somewhere on the field than it will be to push a robot into a position to be loaded by your payload specialist. This is a large part of why I have been an advocate for the "mass dump" scoring strategy. My thought is; 1. fill a robot with a quantity of balls. 2. chase an opponent's trailer till he runs into something or your partner "sets a pick". 3. dump your whole load while the opponent bot struggles to extricate itself. 4. go get more balls and repeat.

I'm excited to see how the game really plays out.

Matt B

[jamie_1930]

The wheels will have more grip on the carpet, but as soon as you leave the carpet and re-enter the regolith the wheels will lose all traction, due to the speed they are spinning at and slip back into the carpet. So most likely it will work to pin with two bots, and in the worst case scenario the pinned bot will jerk around.

[Rick Wagner]

Originally Posted by MattB703

Here is another thought;

It will be much easier to stop a robot for a few seconds somewhere on the field than it will be to push a robot into a position to be loaded by your payload specialist. This is a large part of why I have been an advocate for the "mass dump" scoring strategy. My thought is; 1. fill a robot with a quantity of balls. 2. chase an opponent's trailer till he runs into something or your partner "sets a pick". 3. dump your whole load while the opponent bot struggles to extricate itself. 4. go get more balls and repeat.

I'm excited to see how the game really plays out.

Matt B

I agree that a lot of points will be scored by the chase, bump, and dump strategy. The pursuit algorithm with matched robots on a limited field will always result in the chaser overtaking. The minimal turn radius at 10 ft. / sec with 0.06g acceleration is 8 feet. The real question is who wins in the contest of bump and dumpers versus pinners and PS shooters.

[nahstobor]

The good old basketball "corner trap" might play out well.

[FRC1672]

The idea of pinning a teams robot is somewhat effective. I want to see how plausible this idea was with the simulation that was shown at kickoff but thats yet to be released. I believed this strategy will be tested and finnally decided on in the week 1 regionals. We will be at Trenton so we we be one of the the first teams possibly employing this technique.

[MGoelz]

Originally Posted by Taylor

I disagree - with the robot off, if we hand-push the robot on linoleum, the wheels don't turn the transmission gears. If we hand-push the robot on carpet, the sprockets turn. The wheels are grippier on carpet than they are on regolith.

Originally Posted by smurfgirl

Well yes, I realize they are grippier on carpet, but from what I've heard about people testing their robots in both situations, its not as much of a difference as people are speculating.

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

The wheels will have more grip on the carpet, but as soon as you leave the carpet and re-enter the regolith the wheels will lose all traction, due to the speed they are spinning at and slip back into the carpet. So most likely it will work to pin with two bots, and in the worst case scenario the pinned bot will jerk around.

First of all, I have to point out that the likelihood of your robot being entirely on carpet is rather slim. I think that was something that FIRST did to a) give the ability for some teams to just drive around the edges (but that would make your trailer an open target) and b) to help if you run into a wall to provide that tiny bit more traction to propel you back onto the regolith.

Originally Posted by thefro526

I think more often than not you're going to want to keep your alliance's robots moving. This would pretty much make the strategy of having 2 robots pin one down pretty ineffective.

I completely agree. Movement will be key. If you're not moving, your trailer is much more vulnerable. Imagine if all the robots are on one half of the field. A PS that would throw from the side where no robots are would have a small chance of scoring if you move, because by the time the ball gets there, your robot could be gone.

Originally Posted by Redskins1666

I really dislike this years game, because of it's human player abilities. Where is the talent in your robot when a human is shooting the ball? I would like to see the ratio for robot to human scoring and see how much more the human will score. This is more of a athletic game with a moving robot.

I would not say that this is an athletic game with just moving robots. It's all a matter of opinion, but I would like to point out that FIRST is about robots. They wouldn't create a game where the robots weren't important. I think the idea is to see that although the PS is important, robot scoring can be just as, if not, more effective. A PS has limited opportunities to score, and has the time factor of having to bend down, pick up a ball and throw it. Throwing more than one at once would be highly inaccurate (provided the trailer isn't next to the fueling station) and therefore they must throw one at a time. This goes along with:

Originally Posted by MattB703

Here is another thought;

It will be much easier to stop a robot for a few seconds somewhere on the field than it will be to push a robot into a position to be loaded by your payload specialist. This is a large part of why I have been an advocate for the "mass dump" scoring strategy. My thought is; 1. fill a robot with a quantity of balls. 2. chase an opponent's trailer till he runs into something or your partner "sets a pick". 3. dump your whole load while the opponent bot struggles to extricate itself. 4. go get more balls and repeat

Mass scoring robots will greatly sway the game. In my opinion, this is probably the most efficient way to score. When you have a trailer in front of you, and you have any number of balls in possession, you want to get rid of them as quickly as possible, before you lose that opportunity to score.

Teamwork is important in every game, but so is self-reliance. If your alliance partners get in a bind, you don't want to be helpless. You have to know that, should that happen, you can still be an effective player for your alliance and do something to help bring up the score. It's always to good to plan for the worst case scenario.

[lenny8]

Originally Posted by Redskins1666

I really do prefer the dumping method over the rest because you have multiple chances of scoring rather than just that one shot.


I really dislike this years game, because of it's human player abilities. Where is the talent in your robot when a human is shooting the ball? I would like to see the ratio for robot to human scoring and see how much more the human will score. This is more of a athletic game with a moving robot.

i think the human interaction wont be as great as you mite assume just because a. robots are moving b. im going to assume most of the balls will be on the field so the humans will not have many chances.

[Akash Rastogi]

Just pointing out what I see as the obvious, BUT, all I know is no matter what your strategy (and yes I've played out a CRAP load of strategies in my head) you will be compromising something, whether it is you getting scored on, or you having to not score on other robots.

Think about the best strategy you think will take place on the field, and then just think about the cons of it. Not the pros.

P.S. If you can come up with a strategy that you think has no compromises, PM or IM me and we'll talk about how wrong you are...

[Rick Wagner]

Regarding the vulnerability of robots pinning another while the PS scores in its trailer, that will be true in the first 100 seconds of the match, but in the final 20 seconds, it's more likely for super cells to be scored by PSs than by robots. A teamwork pinning strategy could be decisive in the case of an alliance having super cells to score.

[fuzzy1718]

assumeing that there will be super cells to throw. if by some chance you shut your opponets out the previous match you lose what? 3 super cells I think? Supercells will not be a huge thing this season, they will be the spoilers of 2007, rarely played

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Just pointing out what I see as the obvious, BUT, all I know is no matter what your strategy (and yes I've played out a CRAP load of strategies in my head) you will be compromising something, whether it is you getting scored on, or you having to not score on other robots.

Think about the best strategy you think will take place on the field, and then just think about the cons of it. Not the pros.

P.S. If you can come up with a strategy that you think has no compromises, PM or IM me and we'll talk about how wrong you are...

Stogi, yes we are just talking about theoretical strategies based on assumed circumstances and robot capabilities but speaking here is very useful. You're right, no strategy is ever completely without flaw but what we're trying to do here is get feedback on prospective strategies. Shoot me an IM When you get a chance tho.

To get back on topic, A friend and I came to a realization this week. For most robots, including our own, it'll be extremely difficult to get and score a single isolated ball (Super Cell) in 20 seconds. So we figured out the best way for our team to score them:

We'd make sure that both of our Human Players on either end have at least one Super Cell engaged by the last 30 seconds of the match and that our robot has 5 or more balls ready to be scored. Then in the final 30 seconds we'd wait for a robot to go anywhere close to one of our human players on either end and try to pin them in front of the airlock with the help of one of our teammates. The instant those final 20 seconds come around our human player would then have to lob a single Super Cell over the wall into your opponents trailer which is incredibly easy. At this time we'd score any balls we have in our possession and so would our team mate. If timed correctly the robots would only have to be stationary for 5-10 seconds at the most but we'd have the opportunity to score 20 or more points.

Of course that strategy would have it's flaws but it might be worth looking into.