Apologizing for Blowout Match

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Wayne C.

Akash-

I hope we never BRUTALLY beat anybody. But I do tell my team to always do their best. Win or lose you can always live with yourself if you do.

Hehe, by brutally I just meant by a huge scoring gap.

[bduddy]

Before I am accused of anything, I should probably make it clear that I come down firmly in the anti-G14 camp. However, the coaches (not the players, who should never be faulted for listening to their coach and playing as hard as they can) of the Covenant School should be ashamed of themselves, for several reasons:

-The game was against not only a tiny private school, but one specialising in students with learning difficulties. Now, of course that is no reason not to compete as much as usual, but they should have shown a basic amount of compassion.

-They were clearly going for the 100 points they got to without any regard for their opponents. Plus, when they got there (with about four minutes left, according to the article) they stopped. If you're going to compete to this ridiculous agree, at least do it for a better reason then a big, round number.

-They were clearly attempting to press their advantage by employing the full-court press, which (for those who don't know basketball) is a high-pressure defensive technique that is rarely used at most levels. They were also taking 3-pointers, in an obvious effort to run up the score. I am not sure about this, and may be wrong, but I think I may have heard somewhere that they had their starting players in as well.

The coach was fired recently (less then an hour ago, apparently!) for changing his stance and refusing to apologize.

http://sports.espn.go.com/highschool/rise/basketball/girls/news/story?id=3859935

I would post on what this has to do with FIRST, but it's 2 AM and a) I have class tomorrow and b) I would like to be coherent when I do so

[JackN]

I will never apologize for winning a match. I will play my hardest and push myself, my drivers, and my alliance partners to continue to do the same. Which would make you more embarrassed, losing a match 80-0 where your opponent played all out and played to the best of their ability or losing a match 80-41 where your opponent scored a majority of the points your alliance scored to prevent getting a G14. I know i would rather lose 80-0, at least in that situation I know my opponent respects me enough that scoring on themselves is a dangerous risk to them.

[JaneYoung]

A team can never play its best when it is competing against a team that can't play on the same level. Neither team can. The team who scored 100 - 0, scored 100 - 0. Period. They didn't play to their best ability.

For those comparing a basketball game to this year's FRC game, it can't be done. Different rules. How the teams on the alliances play according to the rules and the scoring will determine the teams who play to the best of their ability.

Sometimes running up a score is just that.

[hallk]

The school apologized but the coach didn't.
One of the main points of debate is the unwritten rule in basketball that when you are winning by a larger margin, you play the 'b' team and back off on the full court press. Neither of those things occured.
Someone should teach the rest of the world GP.
Or take away their ball for the next match

[RMiller]

Originally Posted by hallk

The school apologized but the coach didn't.
One of the main points of debate is the unwritten rule in basketball that when you are winning by a larger margin, you play the 'b' team and back off on the full court press. Neither of those things occured.
Someone should teach the rest of the world GP.
Or take away their ball for the next match

Exactly. In addition, you don't keep shooting three-pointers.
It is the same across most team-based sports. When you get up by an insurmountable lead, you pull the starters. This has a lot of benefits for your team anyway. 1) The "2nd string/line" gets experience in the game. Who knows when they will be needed down the road. Granted, this is not a pressure situation, but it is game-day experience. 2) You protect your starters from injury.



Differences from FIRST: 1) As stated earlier, FIRST is a 2-minute game while all these sports are 45+ minute games. 2) The scoring in FIRST can happen very fast (especially this year with the super cells). 3) As stated, with possible penalties, it is hard to know where you stand.

As to G-14: I personally am glad that they add the stipulation about penalties being applied after checking for score more than double. I have some concerns about the rule, but in the end, it is what we have and we have to live by them. I will hold judgment on it until I see how applicable it really is during the competition.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

A team can never play its best when it is competing against a team that can't play on the same level. Neither team can. The team who scored 100 - 0, scored 100 - 0. Period. They didn't play to their best ability.

For those comparing a basketball game to this year's FRC game, it can't be done. Different rules. How the teams on the alliances play according to the rules and the scoring will determine the teams who play to the best of their ability.

Sometimes running up a score is just that.

Jane, I agree on your first point, teams can only play to their best when they are pushed. Otherwise they are playing at whatever level they feel comfortable. A lot of people would never move forward if they weren't pushed.

While FIRST is different than basketball the concept is the same. Both are team sports where we compete to win. In my opinion the major difference is that in basketball you can choose your team, FIRST doesn't give us that benefit for most of the competition. Does that mean we should take it easy on people? NO. Ive said countless times that teams need to compete as if it were the last match they will ever play. Ive had people go easy on me in various games and competitions. I was offended. I was hurt. Frankly, the fact that the winning team stopped at 100 is more offensive in my opinion than the fact that they dominated the game.

How does this apply to FIRST? I don't care who you are, if you are 1114 or if you are a team who barely made a robot if you do not play your hardest against me I will think less of you.

How do I feel about the apology? I think that is offensive to the team that lost. What the district is saying is, "We are sorry we didn't take it easy on you because you are pathetic and we are so much better than you." I applaud the coach for standing up and treating these kids as actual competitors instead of treating the game like a practice match.

DISCLAIMER: I do not approve of leveling the playing field or G14 in any way shape of form.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

How does this apply to FIRST? I don't care who you are, if you are 1114 or if you are a team who barely made a robot if you do not play your hardest against me I will think less of you.

Regarding FIRST, I would prefer to see teams and alliances play their smartest. That would include respecting, understanding, and applying the rules.

Implied rules such as going to the b game in basketball so there isn't a blow-out is what creates problems and bad will. To me, this is what this thread is about regarding that basketball game.

[Koko Ed]

The smartest thing that coach could have done was keep his mouth shut.
When a story like this is getting national attention the last thing you do is contradict your boss and show them up in the press. The results are always predictable.

[DonRotolo]

The real <fault/crime/sad thing>* is whomever set up the match, IF they knew the relative level of skills of each team.

Kind of like the NY Giants playing a junior High School team - think there'd be any fun for anyone? But, such a margin of victory is no reason to be ashamed. If there is to be a forfeit, it should be before the game has ended.


*Can't think of a good word for that..

.

[kjhobin]

According to this letter from the (now fired) coach off of the teams web site [http://www.flightbasketball.com/100-...om-Coach.html] He stopped the "Full court press" after three minutes into the game after they already scored 25 points, and also there were only 4 3-point shots in the entire game, 3 in the first quarter, and 1 in the third.

Take a look at the story from another perspective. I think that what he did was right. You should not forfeit the game if you have a blowout. You should be respectful to the other team and make sure you let them know that they played hard too and tried their best.

Please, take a look at the letter, it really paints a different picture than what the media had been painting.

http://www.flightbasketball.com/100-...rom-Coach.html

[AndrewN]

The FRC competitions are a little different:

During the qualifying matches you should consider that part of your ranking will come from the losing alliances score. If you are clearly winning it will help your alliance teams if you do back off and allow the opponents to accumulate some points. We are playing a multi-game strategy here.

During the final matches you should be playing as hard as possible even if this means that the opponents have no score. The losing score doesn't count toward moving to the next level.

GP is realizing that when each individual game is over we should all be helping each other to achieve the best results we can, even if that means helping the next match opponent get their robot back on the field.

Opinion on the original topic: I don't want my opponent to throw the match. I want to keep getting better until I can score against the tough teams. How will you know where the bar is if it's always getting lowered for you?

[Koko Ed]

After the fiasco that the orignal story ended up becoming I prefer this story a whole lot more.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

After the fiasco that the orignal story ended up becoming I prefer this story a whole lot more.

It's way less controversial, and definitely more meaningful. Thanks for contributing that to the thread (yes, there are lots of good people in the world.) (:

[GaryVoshol]

A much better display of sportsmanship. They may not call it GP, but they get it.