Go to Post "We don't build the robots, we build the robot builders." - [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > ChiefDelphi.com Website > Extra Discussion
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-01-2009, 00:20
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,807
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: pic: Is this corner considered protected?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hill View Post

[edited for brevity]

Reference #2: "Both sides of the corner must be protected by BUMPER segments." Comment: they are, see above. "Rule <R08-i> requires BUMPER protection on every corner of the BUMPER PERIMETER." There is obviously BUMPER protection on every corner of the BUMPER PERIMETER, see above drawing.
Please note the plural form. The GDC has been quite clear on this. There is bumper protection, yes. It is protected by a bumper segment. I'm nit-picking here, but it seems that this would be illegal.

Quote:
Reference #4: "The interpretation that "both sides of an exterior corner must be protected with segments of bumpers, and the bumper segments must be a minimum of 6 inches" is correct." Comment: both sides of the corner are protected, see above, and the bumper segments in the example can be easily made to meet the 6" minimum dimension requirement.
Again, plural form is used.

Quote:
Mike8519: You state ..."those corners must be protected by 6" of bumper on each side"..... I think if you read carefully the requirements typically state ..."both sides of the corner must be protected"... not, corners must be protected on each side. They do not mean the same thing.
While the words don't mean the same thing, the first is a subcase of the second. The first is also what the GDC seems to be saying.

I know how we can settle this once and for all. Submit the picture to Q&A. Ask: "Are corners A and B adequately protected under <R08>? If not, why not?" If they don't refer you back to the rule, they will hopefully give a straight answer.

The other option is that they say, "we cannot comment on specific robot designs", in which case I would advise having a more conservative route available at the event or just plain installed on the robot.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-01-2009, 00:35
Scott Hill Scott Hill is offline
Registered User
FRC #1625 (Winnovation)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Rockford, IL
Posts: 23
Scott Hill is a splendid one to beholdScott Hill is a splendid one to beholdScott Hill is a splendid one to beholdScott Hill is a splendid one to beholdScott Hill is a splendid one to beholdScott Hill is a splendid one to beholdScott Hill is a splendid one to behold
Re: pic: Is this corner considered protected?

EricH,

Thanks for your comments.

Question: If the plural is required as you say and "protected by a bumper segment" would not be legal, as you suggest, is a robot side legally protected if it is covered completely by only one bumper segment?

I think it would be.

I also don't see how you can consider the first of the two statements as you list them as a subcase of the second. I have never seen the GDC say the first, and I have quite often seen them specifically say the second.

Scott
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-01-2009, 00:42
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,807
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: pic: Is this corner considered protected?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hill View Post
EricH,

Thanks for your comments.

Question: If the plural is required as you say and "protected by a bumper segment" would not be legal, as you suggest, is a robot side legally protected if it is covered completely by only one bumper segment?

I think it would be.
We aren't considering sides, are we? We are considering corners, which are a junction of two sides.

Quote:
I also don't see how you can consider the first of the two statements as you list them as a subcase of the second. I have never seen the GDC say the first, and I have quite often seen them specifically say the second.

Scott
On this, I have reviewed. If the corners must be protected on by six inches of bumpers on both sides, then by definition, both sides are protected. So the second is a subcase of the first, but may also stand alone. I stand corrected.

However, I now have some more things to consider. Several teams have recently asked, "will bending 1 6+" bumper segment around a corner be legal if we don't have backing in the corner and we have less than 6" on one side?" or something to that effect. The GDC has answered no to all cases like this. But if you had a 13" piece of bumper, broken into 2 6" segments and a filled, I'm pretty sure that would be legal. Just some food for thought.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-01-2009, 00:50
Scott Hill Scott Hill is offline
Registered User
FRC #1625 (Winnovation)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Rockford, IL
Posts: 23
Scott Hill is a splendid one to beholdScott Hill is a splendid one to beholdScott Hill is a splendid one to beholdScott Hill is a splendid one to beholdScott Hill is a splendid one to beholdScott Hill is a splendid one to beholdScott Hill is a splendid one to behold
Re: pic: Is this corner considered protected?

EricH,

I believe the statements you included were referencing the sides of the corner.

Thanks,

Scott
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 28-01-2009, 01:25
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,807
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: pic: Is this corner considered protected?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hill View Post
EricH,

I believe the statements you included were referencing the sides of the corner.

Thanks,

Scott
In which post?

The debate here (to remind ourselves and inform anyone just joining us) is over one simple question: Do both sides of a given corner have to be protected by bumper segments of 6" or more?

I am going to state the full reason for my interpretation. This will take a while, so bear with me.

My response will follow the reverse chronological order in Q&A.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11635

3 rules are cited. One is hard parts in a corner, one is the backing. Those aren't relevant here. But the reference to <R08-A> is interesting. Rounding a corner to protect both sides results in 2 segments. Neither is long enough in this case.

The next one regards the design under consideration. http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11600
However, it only covers defining an exterior corner.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11609 Clarification that no, you can't wrap a bumper and have it be one segment. From henceforward, I will ignore those Q&As that cover this topic, unless something else is answered.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11454
They are considering a similar setup. Note that the GDC says, "We can't rule on specific designs. We leave that to the event inspectors."

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11471
This one is annoying. It references Bill's Blog and sets off a chain of research. Ah-hah! Bill's Blog has something: http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2009...r-musings.html
Unfortunately, this is an unofficial channel. Nonetheless, point 3 is important. Remember, Bill is on the GDC. This is by no means official, however. I will deal with the rest of the research later, if necessary.

OK, I lie. This one is referenced to ask the previous question. http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11170
Note: the relevant question, #1 in the second post, is not directly answered. However, the logic is confirmed.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11218 is perhaps the most direct. See the GDC's first paragraph. This is one disagreed with earlier. I will simply say, note the plural.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11159 is also referenced by the one that references Bill's Blog, though through a chain. #2 is the relevant point here. It's another "answer with a not-quite answer".

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11056 Here's one for you. They say that at least part of the fourth side of a 4-sided robot must be covered by bumpers. If that holds with an extra 2 sides...

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=10933 and http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11070 address the issue directly and are vaguely answered, at least as concerns this discussion.

Those are all that I could find relating to this topic. Taking those together, I conclude that the corners A and B must have a 6" segment of bumper on both sides, which is impossible due to the location of the trailer hitch. Therefore, a design change must be made. If there are questions as to why I interpret a response the way I do, go ahead and ask; I could be wrong.

Edit: Dave responded in the thread with just the overhead view. His response (barring an official overturning from the GDC via Q&A) is that the configuration won't pass inspection.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk


Last edited by EricH : 28-01-2009 at 10:42. Reason: New information
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is this considered a hurdle? chaineezee Rules/Strategy 10 07-01-2008 19:12
Ballast considered extra parts? Gabe Rules/Strategy 9 12-02-2007 10:47
useing Copyright protected music. [527]phil Website Design/Showcase 15 22-10-2006 20:26
pic: Is this currently legal or considered exotic? CD47-Bot Robot Showcase 10 13-05-2003 01:09
Are Grommets considered fasteners? kmcclary Off-Season Events 1 04-11-2001 17:26


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:58.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi