pic: The Fighting Rednecks

[Karthik]

I find it quite ironic that we're discussing the appropriateness of names in regards to stereotyping and imagery on a website named ChiefDelphi...

[Johnny]

I happen to agree with Jane. I don't really believe that the word "redneck" is giving off the proper aura. I would consider it a deragatory term. Using a deragatory term such as this also opens up other terms that are widely used, but considered more offensive, to be up for use with such the same agruments as this one. As a mexican, I'm really against stereotypical terms such as "beaner" and can relate to what Jane has said.

Does this name meet FIRST rules? It can be offensive to some people as has been proven so far.

Just a thought, Why not something like The Fighting Farmers or The Rural Agitators. lol

[JasonV]

I am sure that they were not attempting to offend anyone with their name, people can find fault in anything if they read to much into it. It is just a joke about the fighting Irish and a good one, I want a shirt with that logo.

[Herodotus]

I don't understand how redneck is an offensive name. Many people who are "rednecks" happily refer to themselves as such(I can be a bit of one sometimes) and wear it as a badge of honor. It's true that it is a stereotype, but not all stereotypes are bad. Stereotypes are a very human development that allows people to create categories and groups in their minds, to draw associations and make connections between people.

The problem is when those stereotypes are negative and insulting.

[colin340]

i see Jane's point
think about putting the name in a collage application essay what if the person reading it see it as a derogatory term

also if students are on a team of "rednecks" are they going to even think collage is for them??

don't let cd decide if it right, talk to your team about are concerns and take a vote

[Team2883]

Speaking on behalf of Team 2883 we will be revisiting our logo and our name on Monday. If we have offended anyone we apologize it was not the intent of our team. At this time all activity and association of the Redneck will cease. We would like to mention that we do have several views on it but will take the active stand that if you (our peers) find it offensive it should be abolished. We would also like to thank the people who stood up and tried to plead our case. But as can be seen some people's ability to over analyze information makes them a threat to the ability to expand outside of stereotypes and break down barriers as well. A intelligent "Redneck" with the sophistication and ability to build a technologically advanced robot and harvest the ideas to possible future invention or innovations that could change the world does not seem to be slander or negative impacting to farmers or "rednecks".

Thank-you
JUST
Team 2883

[ebarker]

The thread is getting terminated before I got a chance to toot my horn but I'm gonna toot anyway.

To be very blunt, I don't like this particular image, name, or characterization. The image alone is loaded with strong negative stereotypes before the verbage is even added.

This is from someone with a lot of experience dealing with the types associated the image. And I am from a long family line of agrarian types that are not associated with r'necks.

Having said all of that I would like to suggest an alternative that could be very positive yet retain where you may be trying to go.

There is a culturally iconic painting that has reached the cultural status of DaVinci's Mona Lisa and is continuing to have a long reaching effect on American Art and Culture.

It is called 'American Gothic'. It is a "a depiction of steadfast American pioneer spirit" as represented by sturdy American farmers.

Think about it and maybe you can find some good ideas. Start by looking at the variations on the painting.

the original

a version

more interesting versions

just go to images.google.com and search on "american gothic"

good luck

[Meredith Novak]

This thread looks like a rookie team got bullied out of using a name they chose and a logo they worked hard to design. It is clever, funny, and obviously was intended as a humorous (if un-PC, who cares?) salute to their region. While it may not be the team image some of the rest of us would embrace, there are plenty of those in FIRST already. Team 2883's gracious behavior can serve as an example to all of us - no matter what their name is. I look forward to seeing them shine in the years to come

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Well, let's explore this just a little further and then I will hush.

If one buys into the vision of helping to change the culture, bringing science and technology and its value/importance to light in our schools and communities - that is a tall order for an FRC team that is interested in building robots and competing. If a school has sports teams and mascots and traditionally promotes those teams, their history, and their value to the community - is that changing the culture or - is that status quo as old as the hills? The names/logos/mission statements and activities that FRC teams brand themselves with can help their communities develop and change or they can help them remain the same, keeping recognition of science and technology in shadow rather than in the light.

Rednecks, I do not mean to pick on you in any way - I am just offering a different perspective and perhaps some food for thought.

Jane

Edit: I was writing while Chris posted. This comment is not about the copyright post.

Jane,

You and I usually agree on things, but in this case I have to disagree with you.

FIRST is about changing culture. How can we change culture if we (in this case the social stigma of the word 'Redneck') avoid the topics that are truely divisive in this society? Isn't it better to challange the stereotype rather than ignore / avoid it? It seems to me that if these 'Rednecks' can built robots, doesn't that effectively challenge society's stereotype ?

JMHO

[EricH]

I have noticed that some "rednecks" love to be called that. It may be that they like to embrace the stereotype..

Also, without them, where would we be? It's the farmers, ranchers, "rednecks" and people like them that make America what it is.

It's like the "dumb blonde" stereotype. Some people hate it. Tell a "dumb blonde" joke around one of my cousins and you're in trouble. But others love it. Where you want to go with that is up to you.

To the OP: Look at your team image. If you, as a team, want to incorporate "redneck" into your team image, go for it. Don't let those that don't like the term dissuade you. I can see some interesting mottos/logos if you continue. You could easily run with this pretty thoroughly.

A intelligent "Redneck" with the sophistication and ability to build a technologically advanced robot and harvest the ideas to possible future invention or innovations that could change the world does not seem to be slander or negative impacting to farmers or "rednecks".

You bet your life it isn't! I go to a tech school that draws most of its students from South Dakota, North Dakota, Nebraska, and Wyoming. These are farming/ranching states, primarily. Some of the students are probably "rednecks". But they're going out there and learning how to improve their work, learning how to change the world, or just plain learning for learning's sake. Intelligent? YES! Negative impact to farmers? NO!

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Jane,

You and I usually agree on things, but in this case I have to disagree with you.

FIRST is about changing culture. How can we change culture if we (in this case the social stigma of the word 'Redneck') avoid the topics that are truely divisive in this society? Isn't it better to challange the stereotype rather than ignore / avoid it? It seems to me that if these 'Rednecks' can built robots, doesn't that effectively challenge society's stereotype ?

JMHO

The questions you ask are excellent questions. If I were to work with a rookie team or any team, it would be my suggestion to brand themselves in a way that would call attention to the robotics program, their sponsor, or to highlight themselves in a way that will gain attention in a manner that showcases themselves in a positive light to the community and to everyone they can potentially impact.

This is what Wikipedia says about rednecks. I also googled 'redneck' and it shows photos that fit the stereotypical label.

If it seemed that I bullied a rookie team into thinking about their image/name and its potential impact, I apologize to the team and to the readers. That was not the purpose or goal of my posts in this thread; it was to provide food for thought.

Jane

Ah, the time old "could be offensive team name" debate. As is my style, this will be harsh. I'm not here to make friends or to play nice, that's for real life, not the internet. Instead, here's an honest opinion:

What gives an obscenity its power? What is it about a four letter word being uttered that makes some people gasp? Nothing more than the lack of use. Colorful language keeps its power when it is reserved for only special circumstances, such as an angry moment.

The same applies here. A term for a racial, ethnic, or social group only holds power in a derogatory sense. If the term "redneck" is put on a fun loving team's logo, it isn't intended to be offensive. If it's said over the shoulder in a slightly muted voice, with the intent of belittling another, THEN it becomes an issue.

So here's my blunt opinion in a nutshell: If you're offended by the word being used by a fun loving group, one who promotes nothing but good, you're part of the problem that you yourself are suffering from. So suck it up, grow a spine. This is harsh, but we live in a harsh world. The more one stigmatizes the word, and the more one draws it out of context to make it offensive, the larger the problem gets. The very problem of cursing can be removed by simply making the word no longer taboo. Desensitize yourself to the terms, and you'll be able to move on and focus on things that actually matter.

[JackN]

I think that this is a clever and funny name. I think the only problem in my mind is that it violate some kind of copyright law (I don't know I am not a lawyer). I would rather see something creative like The Fighting Rednecks than say The RoboDogs, RoboCats, or Robo-insert random animal. If a team wants to celebrate their background coming from a "Redneck" town, let them. Team 2883 is not trying to insult or abuse people, they are trying to be creative and to be clever, I say go for it.

[ebarker]

I don't want to insult or inflame, but....

FIRST is about changing culture. What culture do we want to change ? The attitudes of people toward scientists and engineers ? or the attitudes of people toward rednecks ?

It seems to me we are picking the wrong fight !!

I grew up in South Carolina, you know, the people that seceded. I then lived in the Washington DC area.

When I lived in that area and had discussions with the folks around town, in my experience, almost without exception the references made to 'those rednecks' were derisive and commonly prejudicial, without merit to the situation being discussed.

The wiki is substantially correct in its history and etymology. The fact that a group of people refers to themselves as 'R' is IMHO not different than another group people that refer to themselves as 'N'.

It doesn't make it correct or proper of suitable for good company. Call me stuffy and uptight but that is the way I see it.

Having said all of that - Jeff Foxworthy et. al. has done more to change the popular definition of redneck than the previous 300 years of history.

Jeff Foxworthy has also clearly stated that his definition of redneck is substantially departed from socio economic class occupation stereotypes and more aligned around specific behavioral pathologies. Hence the California urban redneck, and others.

Jeff Foxworthy's definition is really funny. The prior historical definition is substantially less entertaining.

If the team chooses to keep the redneck monicker they are certainly free to do so but I'll submit that it could run into resistance in the other sub-cultures that exist across the country.

Best Regards and Good Luck.

edit: added a comment.

I'm not beating up the team, just the idea. Tossing around ideas and having a lively debate is a wonderful thing. I've been to Minnesota. It is a beautiful state with wonderful people. I'm sure they have plenty more opportunities to come up with great ideas. I'm just speaking from my life experience as a southerner that I'd advise against the redneck course.

next edit:

Here is how I'd expect the sponsor fundraising meeting to go, really funny. the sales pitch for the team

[joshsmithers]

Back in 07, when our team was re-naming ourselves, I proposed the team name "Hick Town Thunder." (It would be awesome, designing our logo to mimic T3's...) But my idea was easily shot down by the same argument Jane has pushed. To this day, I do not understand how these similiar ideas are offensive to people, especially those who are not rednecks.

I like the logo. I support it because it is funny, clever, and eye-catching. I see nothing wrong with it and cannot understand why anyone would take offense to it, especially if you aren't a redneck. Therefore, the only people who are qualified to say whether this logo is offensive are rednecks. I really hope 2883 will have the guts and confidence to keep this their team name and logo.