Need Opinions On Rule <R02-C>

[RoboTigers1796]

Our team ill-advisedly decided to go with a fairly dark john deere green (actually came out darker then we had planned) this year on our robot thinking it would be fine since the color the camera is tracking is a very bright fluorescent green. We finally got it painted in a John Deere green and at the same time we got the axis camera up and running to track colors. For kicks we tried to see if it picked up our robot. We noticed that with no calibration the camera would track almost every shade of green... (even a green folder, the green from our desks, strangely even a light baby blue color of a flash drive hanging on a students belt) including our robot chassis. Now, seeing that it tracks all of these colors, even a shade of blue, would our green chassis be a violation of Rule <R02-C>? Obviously we know enough to calibrate the camera to only recognize the bright fluorecent green. Our concern is the less experienced teams who might not adjust their camera and leave it with default settings like we tested with. It would technically be a violation of Rule <R02-C>. An argument would be that because the camera is so unstable their camera could be tracking anything. Below are a few pictures so please give us your personal opinion. Is it dark enough to leave or should we really re-paint. The reason we are so reluctant is that we are already behind schedule and getting a new coat on there would literally push us to the deadline...

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: sorry for stretching your screens out there, trying to get re-sized ones up now.

Uncalibrated Axis Camera Screenshot


Better Picture of Color

[dtengineering]

First of all, some serious GP kudos to you and your team for testing it with the camera, even though you didn't think it should have been a problem. Looking at the robot, I wouldn't expect it to be a problem, either.

Personally, I would expect teams that are planning to use cameras to have put at least a bit of effort in to calibrating them. If you can demonstrate that a calibrated camera can reliably track the green target material without interference from your robot, then you should be fine.

After all, teams are expected to be gracious (not attempt to "jam" the system) and professional (follow proper equipment set up). R02 prohibits intentionally interfering with the vision system, and your colour scheme is clearly not intended to interfere, and this Q&A http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11118 suggests that teams are expected to calibrate their cameras. This Q&A http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11423 suggests that the test is "large areas the same colour" as the vision target. I would suggest that your robot niether has "the same colour" nor "large areas" of that colour once additional components such as bumpers, etc. are added.

Note, however, that I say "should" and "I expect" a lot. If a more detailed search of the Q&A doesn't answer this question to your specifications, then I would suggest either posing a question on the Q&A along the lines of "Regarding R02, is the determination of "same colour" as the vision target to be made by a) a tech inspector based upon how the human eye perceives colour B) an uncalibrated camera C) a calibrated camera or D) some other technique?" That might answer your question.

But for now, I'd leave it green, and take along a roll of 2" wide masking tape to your competition so you can cover it up if you have a problem.

Jason

[vhcook]

Good job for thinking of this and thoroughly testing it. I would agree that the problem for an uncalibrated camera will likely be reduced once your other components are attached, and that you should be fine on R02-C (although Q&A is probably a good idea).

In addition to Jason's suggestions, I'd advise that you keep a close eye on things during practice day and offer calibration assistance to any team that seems to be having problems targeting when your robot is present.

[Urban Hawk]

well although i do agree with them on the rule... i do not expect the inspectors to be very happy about it at the competition. It might not be intended to interfere but there still is the possibility it could interfere with the cameras if they are uncalibrated.
Also i wouldn't put complete faith in that all the rookie teams will have it calibrated given the fact that they are rookies and they might not give a thought to calibrating it having not done it before.
So even if it is within the rules I'd bet anything that the moment those inspectors see the robot they are going to make you change the color because regardless of whether or not it isn't intended to jam the camera doesn't mean it can't and they won't want something running around and jamming all the rookie's cameras. I'd say just paint it a different color just to be on the safe side, then you won't have to worry if you are within the rules or not.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

... colour ... colour ...colour... colour ... colour... colour

At last -- I've fond my missing "U"s!

[ChrisH]

While teams have a responsibility to make reasonable efforts not to interfere with the vision systems of other robots, the teams using the vision system also have a responsibility to properly calibrate it. My own team's testing revealed that the camera will pick up on very subtle differences if properly programmed and calibrated.

In my view, 1796 has made a reasonable effort not to interfere. They might want to go to the additional effort of discovering the threshold settings at which the camera detects that particular color of green. They can then communicate this information to anybody who might have a problem with their robot.

ChrisH

Originally Posted by Urban Hawk

well although i do agree with them on the rule... i do not expect the inspectors to be very happy about it at the competition. It might not be intended to interfere but there still is the possibility it could interfere with the cameras if they are uncalibrated.
Also i wouldn't put complete faith in that all the rookie teams will have it calibrated given the fact that they are rookies and they might not give a thought to calibrating it having not done it before.
So even if it is within the rules I'd bet anything that the moment those inspectors see the robot they are going to make you change the color because regardless of whether or not it isn't intended to jam the camera doesn't mean it can't and they won't want something running around and jamming all the rookie's cameras. I'd say just paint it a different color just to be on the safe side, then you won't have to worry if you are within the rules or not.

[Urban Hawk]

i am not saying the teams are not being responsible if they don't calibrate it. I am saying that some teams... especially the new teams... may not know they have to calibrate it or if they are like us the first year and never properly test it until the actual competition. In those cases the teams cameras could be jammed and the first inspectors will probably take into account that fact. In my opinion it is better to be safe then sorry.

[ChrisH]

I have been an Inspector for many years. I am currently an FTA, somebody who works out technical problems during a Regional and who works with the Head Inspector to resolve unusual issues that might arise. I think I can say with some authority that should 1796's robot interfere with another team's vision system, and it comes to the attention of the Inspectors or Refs, a crack programmer or two will be sent to the other team's pit to help them get their system working properly.

By the way, one job of the Inspection staff is recognizing what help a struggling team needs and then seeing they get it. The knowledge required to be an expert in all things is just too broad to expect it all in one person. But the Inspectors know people who know things and will send appropriate people as needed. The Inspectors are you friends.

[RoboTigers1796]

Thanks to everyone for the help and suggestions. We have decided to put a coat of white on the upper portions in hopes of further decreasing the chances of a camera accidently tracking us. Any problems during inspection and we will have to end up using Jason's idea with the masking tape to get back on the field. Finished robot pic will be up next week! Thanks again everyone!