Three suggestions for FIRST

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Posted by Aidan Browne, PhD at 03/11/2001 11:21 AM EST


Engineer on team #175, Buzz Robotics, from Enrico Fermi and Hamilton Sundstrand Space Systems Intl.


In Reply to: Three suggestions for FIRST
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/10/2001 7:13 PM EST:



Joe,

The last thing that the folks at FIRST need right now is for teams to be petitioning changes to the logistics plans mid-stream. Or for that matter, for teams to be petetioning anything. The way the rounds and the staging are happening is the same for everyone, and in my opinion, is running extremely well. FIRST had to make a plan, they did, and they should stick with it (which, coincidently, is the whole point of this years game).

I think you are missing something here -- the two minutes to plan stategy is part of the game. I don't believe that Dean's plan was for each alliance to come up with the ideal strategy every time. The alliances that are failing to come up with a plan are the alliances that go in with four coaches each hellbent on running their own plan.

I think the moral is that any plan is better than no plan. We all have to learn how to communicate with each other effectively and efficiently during that two minutes. The hardest part of this years challenge is for everyone to figure out how to do that well and quickly.

Accept the game for what it is and have fun figuring out how to overcome the difficulties.

Just my three cents,

Aidan


.

: I have two suggestions that I think we should press
: FIRST to implement:

: #1 publish the match schedule at least an hour before
: the match.

: Our driver coaches at UTC said most times they had to
: tell the robot drivers what we were doing as the teams
: were being anounced by Woodie. Often they would not
: complete telling the drivers what they would be doing
: before the match was started. "Don't worry, I will
: talk you through it" became an extremely common phrase
: on stage just as the match began.

: Little is gained by not giving teams more time to work
: out a strategy and much is lost.

: #2 run each group at the nationals like a regional in
: that 4 alliances should be in the elimination rounds.

: To me it seems crazy that only 10 out of 84 teams make
: it to the elimination rounds. This is going to mean a
: lot of team go home thinking they should have been picked.

: #3 Change the tie breaker to time left on the clock not
: average score for the 3 match set. At a mininum, put
: time on the clock above rank in the seeding rounds. It
: seems silly to break a tie between Alliances A and B by
: how they played against groups 1 and 2 with no common
: teams in the groups.

: Comments?

: Joe J.

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Posted by Jessica Boucher at 03/11/2001 11:40 AM EST


Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.


In Reply to: Re: Three suggestions for FIRST
Posted by Aidan Browne, PhD on 03/11/2001 11:21 AM EST:



Thats a good point, and if this goes nowhere, then I will fully accept the game for what it is....but FIRST has changed mid-stream many times before in the years past.

I think the reason why teams aren't accepting the game for what it is is because FIRST has changed things in the midst of the competitions...and if they've done it before, they'll do it again.

-Jessica B, #237

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Posted by Joe Johnson at 03/11/2001 12:13 PM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.


In Reply to: Re: Three suggestions for FIRST
Posted by Jessica Boucher on 03/11/2001 11:40 AM EST:



I can fully see a future in which the max score is
reached. 620, 720 or 820 or whatever.

It is VERY possible that every team coming out of the 4
groups can get that max score. My point is, it is
going to be very strange to have FIRST go back to the
scores that each team had in the group qualifying
matches to determing the winning alliance. By the way,
which team in the allaince do they take? Do they take
the highest ranked team from each alliance or an
average of all teams on the alliance? I am just
proposing a change that seems to make more sense to me.

As to not changing simply because the rules are the
rules and we should not ask for changes, I argue that
FIRST makes changes all the time in mid stream. I
don't see any major "fairness" or implementation issues
with any of the proposals.

Joe J.

[archiver]

Posted by bill whitley at 03/11/2001 12:15 PM EST


Student on team #70, Auto City Bandits, from Powers Catholic High School and Kettering University.


In Reply to: Are you ready for 6 identical matches?
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/11/2001 12:13 PM EST:



I think that they should make time the tie break. No longer will teams only try to do it in 59 seconds, but try to shave off a few extra. This will add extra pressure, extra excitement making the game more fun to watch. It will also make the game more fair, imho.

Bill
Team #70

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Posted by Jessica Boucher at 03/11/2001 12:28 PM EST


Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.


In Reply to: Are you ready for 6 identical matches?
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/11/2001 12:13 PM EST:



I agree as well.....no matter what, I think FIRST is going to be creamed at the Team Forum with problems of this game....

Plus, I think the tie breaker problem is a major issue, but I would most like to see more teams getting into the finals, and I think everyone agrees on that. (If Im wrong, let me know).....so? what do we do about it?

-Jessica B, #237

[archiver]

Posted by nick237 at 03/11/2001 4:33 PM EST


Engineer on team #237, sie h2o bots, from Watertown high school ct and sieman co.


In Reply to: Re: Three suggestions for FIRST
Posted by Aidan Browne, PhD on 03/11/2001 11:21 AM EST:



Petitioning is the GOD given right of any individual "in AMERICA" who believes that a wrong should be right if he or she thinks that their are errors. FIRST is "not" almighty and we are "not" sheep.
If the parameters of the game were laid out prior to this years Signing up, Paying the fees and commiting to another six weeks of suffering many adults " like me " may not have enroled. Lets be honest, this years "game" has none of the excitement that prior years have had. once the bots against bots senerio was removed the game became ice hockey with no sticks or body contact, just skate fast.
To tell us we dont have the right to petition FIRST for anything makes us sound like were slaves or servants and that as volunteers we should be gratefull for the abuse. If there were no teams there would be no FIRST, if there were no adults there would be not teams.
We have a right to voice our oppinions to FIRST just as you have your rights to voice your views to us, and I will be the first to defend your thoughts but dont condemn us.
With out discontent there is no progress, look at Russia and China their leaders were Despots, I dont work well under a totalitarian system thats why I like FIRST so much.
A petition can be a request, it does not have to be a demand, So a polite writen request to FIRST voicing our concerns is not MUTINY.
Any one got change for $100.00
nick237



: Joe,

: The last thing that the folks at FIRST need right now is for teams to be petitioning changes to the logistics plans mid-stream. Or for that matter, for teams to be petetioning anything. The way the rounds and the staging are happening is the same for everyone, and in my opinion, is running extremely well. FIRST had to make a plan, they did, and they should stick with it (which, coincidently, is the whole point of this years game).

: I think you are missing something here -- the two minutes to plan stategy is part of the game. I don't believe that Dean's plan was for each alliance to come up with the ideal strategy every time. The alliances that are failing to come up with a plan are the alliances that go in with four coaches each hellbent on running their own plan.

: I think the moral is that any plan is better than no plan. We all have to learn how to communicate with each other effectively and efficiently during that two minutes. The hardest part of this years challenge is for everyone to figure out how to do that well and quickly.

: Accept the game for what it is and have fun figuring out how to overcome the difficulties.

: Just my three cents,

: Aidan

:
: .

: : I have two suggestions that I think we should press
: : FIRST to implement:

: : #1 publish the match schedule at least an hour before
: : the match.

: : Our driver coaches at UTC said most times they had to
: : tell the robot drivers what we were doing as the teams
: : were being anounced by Woodie. Often they would not
: : complete telling the drivers what they would be doing
: : before the match was started. "Don't worry, I will
: : talk you through it" became an extremely common phrase
: : on stage just as the match began.

: : Little is gained by not giving teams more time to work
: : out a strategy and much is lost.

: : #2 run each group at the nationals like a regional in
: : that 4 alliances should be in the elimination rounds.

: : To me it seems crazy that only 10 out of 84 teams make
: : it to the elimination rounds. This is going to mean a
: : lot of team go home thinking they should have been picked.

: : #3 Change the tie breaker to time left on the clock not
: : average score for the 3 match set. At a mininum, put
: : time on the clock above rank in the seeding rounds. It
: : seems silly to break a tie between Alliances A and B by
: : how they played against groups 1 and 2 with no common
: : teams in the groups.

: : Comments?

: : Joe J.

[archiver]

Posted by bill whitley at 03/11/2001 11:30 AM EST


Student on team #70, Auto City Bandits, from Powers Catholic High School and Kettering University.


In Reply to: Three suggestions for FIRST
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/10/2001 7:13 PM EST:



: #1 publish the match schedule at least an hour before
: the match.

: Our driver coaches at UTC said most times they had to
: tell the robot drivers what we were doing as the teams
: were being anounced by Woodie. Often they would not
: complete telling the drivers what they would be doing
: before the match was started. "Don't worry, I will
: talk you through it" became an extremely common phrase
: on stage just as the match began.

: Little is gained by not giving teams more time to work
: out a strategy and much is lost.

I like #1. I think it adds to the game. If your drivers dont know the strategy, (ie, the coaches have to explain it), have the drivers come up with the strategy. The students can learn the scoring matrices as well as anyone else and I think that since this is supposed to be a high school competition the students should be doing as much as possible. I dont think any teachers, engineers etc should be allowed to be coaches on the field at all. This is a high school students competition, not a competition of which company can afford to donate the most engineering time and money.

The ramblings from a student on a team with no engineers, and little funding.

Bill
Team #70

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Posted by mike oleary at 03/11/2001 10:07 PM EST


Student on team #419, rambots, from bc high and sponsors are overrated..go pocket-change robots!!!.


In Reply to: No sympathy for #1
Posted by bill whitley on 03/11/2001 11:30 AM EST:



lets hear it for teams with no engineers and no sponcors
go ninnies with powertools
ninny mike, who is usually banned from using the powertools

: : #1 publish the match schedule at least an hour before
: : the match.

: : Our driver coaches at UTC said most times they had to
: : tell the robot drivers what we were doing as the teams
: : were being anounced by Woodie. Often they would not
: : complete telling the drivers what they would be doing
: : before the match was started. "Don't worry, I will
: : talk you through it" became an extremely common phrase
: : on stage just as the match began.

: : Little is gained by not giving teams more time to work
: : out a strategy and much is lost.

: I like #1. I think it adds to the game. If your drivers dont know the strategy, (ie, the coaches have to explain it), have the drivers come up with the strategy. The students can learn the scoring matrices as well as anyone else and I think that since this is supposed to be a high school competition the students should be doing as much as possible. I dont think any teachers, engineers etc should be allowed to be coaches on the field at all. This is a high school students competition, not a competition of which company can afford to donate the most engineering time and money.

: The ramblings from a student on a team with no engineers, and little funding.

: Bill
: Team #70

[archiver]

Posted by Jeff W. at 03/11/2001 10:24 PM EST


Student on team #419, RAMBOTS, from Boston College High School and Don't think we actually have a sponsor.


In Reply to: Re: No sympathy for #1
Posted by mike oleary on 03/11/2001 10:07 PM EST:



A shout to all the teams with no engineers and fundings!!!! Rambots=Ninnies with powertool!!! Oh btw mike, you are also banned from going near the robot after you got Dew over the robot.

Jeff W.

: lets hear it for teams with no engineers and no sponcors
: go ninnies with powertools
: ninny mike, who is usually banned from using the powertools

: : : #1 publish the match schedule at least an hour before
: : : the match.

: : : Our driver coaches at UTC said most times they had to
: : : tell the robot drivers what we were doing as the teams
: : : were being anounced by Woodie. Often they would not
: : : complete telling the drivers what they would be doing
: : : before the match was started. "Don't worry, I will
: : : talk you through it" became an extremely common phrase
: : : on stage just as the match began.

: : : Little is gained by not giving teams more time to work
: : : out a strategy and much is lost.

: : I like #1. I think it adds to the game. If your drivers dont know the strategy, (ie, the coaches have to explain it), have the drivers come up with the strategy. The students can learn the scoring matrices as well as anyone else and I think that since this is supposed to be a high school competition the students should be doing as much as possible. I dont think any teachers, engineers etc should be allowed to be coaches on the field at all. This is a high school students competition, not a competition of which company can afford to donate the most engineering time and money.

: : The ramblings from a student on a team with no engineers, and little funding.

: : Bill
: : Team #70

[archiver]

Posted by Michael Martus at 03/11/2001 10:59 PM EST


Coach on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central H.S. and Delphi Automotives Systems.


In Reply to: No sympathy for #1
Posted by bill whitley on 03/11/2001 11:30 AM EST:



I think you missed the point here!

What was said was not that the drivers could not decide how to play the game but rather the lack of time to really cooperate with all teams on the alliance. Rich or poor, good or bad this affects all players. Money is not the point!

Each team wants to play the game to show their strength so that they will be picked for an alliance. I think thats good. However to score high each team needs to know what exactly it is they are to do in the match. When everyone is part of poor cooperation it really shows in the score. That is bad for all.

Having more time will lessen the stress and make the scores climb and also allow all to showoff their great robots and all their hard work.

[archiver]

Posted by Michael Ciavaglia at 03/12/2001 8:30 AM EST


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Interior Systems.


In Reply to: No sympathy for #1
Posted by bill whitley on 03/11/2001 11:30 AM EST:



The situation at the UTC Regional was crazy!! Literally after, "3,2,1, GO" the next teams were being announced.

That meant if you played in the next match there were about two to three minutes to: find out which teams were playing together, find out their strengths, determine how we would play the game, understand who did what first, get your controls hooked up, put your machine on the floor... Oh yea, and communicate to the drivers what was about to happen!!

I don't think the problem was that engineers/teachers were coaches. I think the problem was there were a certain (many) amount of tasks that needed to be completed in a short amount of time.

Would allowing teams to know who they were paired up with on Thursday morning be detrimental? I really don't think teams (even if they wanted to collude and have backroom deals) could possibly control this years seeding format.

I think the added time would allow teams to understand their individual roles and the order that tasks must be completed in.

This would increase the level of cooperation and understanding for the teammates in the stands.

The overall experience for the whole team and all the teams would be raised while reducing the stress on the drivers/coaches.

Mike C.

[archiver]

Posted by colleen - T190 at 03/11/2001 11:59 AM EST


Engineer on team #190, Gompei, from Massachusetts Academy of Math and Science and WPI.


In Reply to: Three suggestions for FIRST
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/10/2001 7:13 PM EST:



If I had only gone and coached in UTC, I would prolly agree with Joe... in CT there were many more dynamics to working with teams.. there were A LOT of great robots, and thus teams that wanted to strut their stuff, do it their way, and do it ON THEIR OWN (almost I would say just to prove they could).. It sometimes made it hard to work something out in which everyone benefitted (i.e. high score to which at least 3 robots contribute something)... Having more time to talk would have at least given more time to help people see the big picture and how easily max points could be accomplished..

In LongIsland.. it was a complete different dynamic.. with a lot of teams that were rookies.. and some getting some technical help from other teams that was making their robots work.. Friday morning seemed more like practice rounds to many teams... Instead of like UTC where we heard "we're going to balance 2-goals on our own, load the big ball, and get into the endzone.. you just get there..", at LI it was more of a "we want to see if this works..." Therefore, the in the morning Friday there was a lot of entanglement between robots, things not working, not driving, and low scores.. as the day progressed, the learning curve was much higher than UTC.. we went out to matches, people said admitedly "hey, we may not be able to get over the ramp on our own" or "we have never tried to balance two.. we probably can't do it by ourselves".. most matches had 4 robots doing what they could and doing it together.. by Saturday morning, high scores were being topped left and right by using basic strategies and everyone watching out for everyone else..

The moral: Two-minute (if even, you only get as long as the match before you takes to play) strategies are rough.. but that's why this game is 'diabolical' right? It's stressing when you're in there, but I like the situation as I look back on it.. and that was reinforced by going to LI..

As for the other points.. Nationals I COMPLETELY agree about that... as we all saw.. the finals at regionals so far have been SHORT (we even played our semi-matches to 6, and the finals to 5 matches, and it was over in barely any time)... it might tack an extra 1/2 hour onto competition... and it would benefit everyone...

As for tie breakers-- we haven't run into that problem (due to nice human player hail mary by team 250 in the semi's) but it seems logical.. it should be based on your performance as an alliance together since you're the ones who tie is being broken...

Just what I think.. see you all at nationals

--c

[archiver]

Posted by Tim Gates at 03/11/2001 6:52 PM EST


Engineer on team #288, RoboDawgs, from Grandville High School and X-Rite/Delphi.


In Reply to: Three suggestions for FIRST
Posted by Joe Johnson on 03/10/2001 7:13 PM EST:



The 5th through 8th seeds should not be forced to pair with the top four seeds. It might have saved a little time during the selection process that proceeds the elimination rounds, but does not make for a more exciting competition. It is another crapshoot on whether or not each alliance gets the best mix of robots to compete well. Or in other words, it infects the elimination rounds with the "luck of the draw" that infects then seeding rounds. Let the top four seeds put together the best combo of players they can.