Team 254's 2009 Robot - "Devastator"

[sdcantrell56]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

While I am still not convinced the "power dump" is the best strategy, this robot may very well make me eat my words. Remarkable.

I too don't necessarily think a power dumper is the best strategy. I am leaning toward both power dumpers and shooters being equal so long as both are built to emphasize there particular strengths. I do believe that any shooter designed for long distances is not going to be particularly effective. I see a rapid fire short range turreted shooter as being on par if not better than power dumpers in many cases. I also think that 254's bot is truly scary as a dumper. Luckily I don't think many dumper designs will be capable of such absurd firepower. As soon as a team makes one wrong move driving which will happen, 254 will be able to offload at least 15+ balls.

[Uberbots]

The only problem with this bot is that if it misses, there are 40 balls on the floor.

(though the chance of all 40 balls missing on even a moving target is quite low)

nice job poofs, coupled with a pinning robot there is no way you guys could lose.

[notaPINKtruck]

Classic 254...good job guys.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by sdcantrell56

I too don't necessarily think a power dumper is the best strategy. I am leaning toward both power dumpers and shooters being equal so long as both are built to emphasize there particular strengths. I do believe that any shooter designed for long distances is not going to be particularly effective. I see a rapid fire short range turreted shooter as being on par if not better than power dumpers in many cases. I also think that 254's bot is truly scary as a dumper. Luckily I don't think many dumper designs will be capable of such absurd firepower. As soon as a team makes one wrong move driving which will happen, 254 will be able to offload at least 15+ balls.

IMHO...
The question is not about short range or long range, not about turreted or stationary. The question is about throughput. If you can spit those balls out fast enough you are by definition a "dumper".

Once you take throughput out of the equation it is about accuracy. There are an infinite number of factors any number of which can be BLENDED into a design. To label a robot as a "shooter" or a "dumper" is strange to me.

There is a spectrum.
On one side we have a robot that can fire off 45 shots from 50 feet away using their super magic camera code in under 5 seconds and score 100% in 2 goals at once.
On the other side we have a robot that fires 1 ball every 10 seconds and can only score in a goal that is touching their robot and misses 50% of the time.

We all obviously want the first example, but we make tradeoffs based on our team's individual limitations. 148 found a balance of range-accuracy-speed-volume that made us very happy. Every other team found their own balance. Some teams don't need to find a balance because they are awesome enough to do EVERYTHING. Most teams cannot do this (or were too chicken to try... us included.)

I'm expecting 71 to unveil their Orbit Ball Howlitzer any day now that makes our robot look like a children's toy.

Honestly... the only stat which matters is the number in your "W" column. I guess we'll wait and see. I'm willing to bet that even if you gave 254 an inferior robot they'd have a whole pile of W's, and NOTHING about this robot is "inferior".

-John

[sdcantrell56]

Originally Posted by JVN

IMHO...
The question is not about short range or long range, not about turreted or stationary. The question is about throughput. If you can spit those balls out fast enough you are by definition a "dumper".

Once you take throughput out of the equation it is about accuracy. There are an infinite number of factors any number of which can be BLENDED into a design. To label a robot as a "shooter" or a "dumper" is strange to me.

There is a spectrum.
On one side we have a robot that can fire off 45 shots from 50 feet away using their super magic camera code in under 5 seconds and score 100% in 2 goals at once.
On the other side we have a robot that fires 1 ball every 10 seconds and can only score in a goal that is touching their robot and misses 50% of the time.

We all obviously want the first example, but we make tradeoffs based on our team's individual limitations. 148 found a balance of range-accuracy-speed-volume that made us very happy. Every other team found their own balance. Some teams don't need to find a balance because they are awesome enough to do EVERYTHING. Most teams cannot do this (or were too chicken to try... us included.)

I'm expecting 71 to unveil their Orbit Ball Howlitzer any day now that makes our robot look like a children's toy.

Honestly... the only stat which matters is the number in your "W" column. I guess we'll wait and see. I'm willing to bet that even if you gave 254 an inferior robot they'd have a whole pile of W's, and NOTHING about this robot is "inferior".

-John

I completely agree. We have become so caught up in the semantics of these designs. There will be many different designs that will win regionals. Right now it is definitely too early to predict what will be the "be all end all design" (not that there ever will be). We have somewhat been debating shooter versus dumper and yet the ultimate will probably be a blend of the 2. 254, 148, 968, and 100 have built robots that lean more towards a "dumper" design but they are still shooting balls some distance. We (1771) lean more towards the "shooter" side of things with being able to aim more precisely, but at the same time we can still empty an entire hopper in under 3 seconds. Both designs have positives and negatives, but as long as each team takes the time to think of these and develop a strategy to take advantage of their strengths, they will have a winning design.

[AdamHeard]

Wow, looking fantastic. Can't wait for Vegas.

Originally Posted by sdcantrell56

I completely agree. We have become so caught up in the semantics of these designs. There will be many different designs that will win regionals. Right now it is definitely too early to predict what will be the "be all end all design" (not that there ever will be). We have somewhat been debating shooter versus dumper and yet the ultimate will probably be a blend of the 2. 254, 148, 968, and 100 have built robots that lean more towards a "dumper" design but they are still shooting balls some distance. We (1771) lean more towards the "shooter" side of things with being able to aim more precisely, but at the same time we can still empty an entire hopper in under 3 seconds. Both designs have positives and negatives, but as long as each team takes the time to think of these and develop a strategy to take advantage of their strengths, they will have a winning design.

This is a thread about 254's robot.

254 built an amazing dumper, and clearly one of the best of the season (yeah, we can make that call now).

You're pretty much trying to justify your decision to build a shooter, by making a shooter versus dumper argument in a thread about their robot.

Make another thread about it, or start that talk in the threads about your robot (which by the way is looking pretty solid and has a totally sick color scheme).

[MrForbes]

....and all of the robots can each only start with seven balls, so loading and harvesting, which depend on payload specialist skill and driver skill, will still play a very large role.

Robots like 254s and 148s will make the game more exciting, and it'll be a pleasure to watch them in action!

[AlexD744]

Originally Posted by squirrel

....and all of the robots can each only start with seven balls, so loading and harvesting, which depend on payload specialist skill and driver skill, will still play a very large role.

Robots like 254s and 148s will make the game more exciting, and it'll be a pleasure to watch them in action!

I 100% agree with this! These designs are truely amazing but if the driver is too slow with pickup then it wouldn't matter anyway and they would only get maybe 1 oppurtunity to dump and if they don't have someone pinning that could go awry too. This game especially dumpers put a huge emphasis on driving ability.

[thefro526]

I Love it.

It has to be by far one of the best looking robots I've seen in a while. It looks almost like a bat...

On to the technical stuff though, could you show a close up of you bumper mounts if you haven't already? I know a lot of teams didn't go with cantilevered wheels because of the bumpers this yeah and I'd like to see the solution you came up with.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by JVN

Honestly... the only stat which matters is the number in your "W" column. I guess we'll wait and see. I'm willing to bet that even if you gave 254 an inferior robot they'd have a whole pile of W's, and NOTHING about this robot is "inferior".

I'm inclined to agree with this statement.

As for "shooters" vs. "dumpers," it's all a matter of execution, strategy, and operation. There will be succesful teams with both designs.
Now, I don't think most "shooters" will function in the way that a majority of the community originally seemed to think they would. I don't think that is a viable strategy, or would even be a highly succesful one if it was.
Granted, there will be some teams who may capably pull it off, but they are the same type of teams that could win a championship building a tiny nine-sided robot with no manipulator.

Without tipping my hand too much, there will be a role, and an important role, for shooter teams with the right design. In fact, there are various different incarnations this role can manifest in, but with similar features.

[dlavery]

Of course, we are all saying this without having seen 71's robot yet. I am preparing to be blown away.




.

[sdcantrell56]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Of course, we are all saying this without having seen 71's robot yet. I am preparing to be blown away.




.

Particularly since they apparently had enough time to make a border-line, full feature length film during the build season. I am possibly more scared than I am from seeing these past few uber-dumper-shooter monsters