What's going in your Withholding Allowance?

[MrForbes]

It looks to me that if you leave the motors as they were when you recieved them from the supplier, that is, you don't cut/strip/connect the wires or solder to the terminals, and you don't put anything on or make any modifications to the shaft, or add or change any mountings, or anything else, then you can bring as many as you want.

To be safe, you might as well just leave all your replacement parts in the boxes they were shipped in, and don't open the boxes. Getting them prepped will give your scouts something to do on Thursday.

[RoboMom]

Originally Posted by Eric O

The GDC has clarified a bit...I think. While I think this individual response is fairly clear, it definitely contradicts some of the other Q&A posts on this topic.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=12033

So, I looks like any KOP or COTS item in "out of the box" condition are the only things not counted. This "out of the box" condition is new to me, as Fabricated to me is different than wear and specifying "out of the box" to me excludes both fabrication and wear.

The Good: From this post I would include the cRio as not included as long as you bring it in it’s out of the box form. (Nothing else attached)

The Bad: Nothing is all that bad. We get to bring in 40lbs of stuff made at any time.

The Ugly: No matter when you wired them, any motor with leads/connectors that you bring to the event is counted toward your 40lbs. I know that some teams would normally bring a lot of spare motors. They must understand that this now counts toward their 40lbs.

I admit it, I'm the least technical person in the room. My usual role is to try to point the way to where to find the information and to translate enough so someone like me can start to understand what the questions are.

But what has me confused is why all this confusion, clarification and debate is going on as recently as today. Those crates are gone. It's a done deal. So some decisions have already been made, intentionally, or unintentionally, about a rule that it appears is still trying to be explained.

I get heartburn when veteran mentors whom I respect are still trying to figure out what the rules are.

And the regional organizers are still awaiting the official marching orders on exactly how and whom is supposed to monitor <R36> once the teams enter the venue. Or not.

[Eric O]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

The way I see the response is that you would be allowed to bring in a bunch of motors as long as they do not have connectors or anything attached to them....am i reading this incorrectly?

You are correct. The first half of my statement says leads/connectors. The last sentence probably should start with "If those motors have connectors on them".

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by RoboMom

And the regional organizers are still awaiting the official marching orders on exactly how and whom is supposed to monitor <R36> once the teams enter the venue. Or not.

I think that one simple statement is just as, or maybe even more important & slightly disturbing than debating what is actually included in the 40lbs.

[MrForbes]

We put the whole robot in the crate, so we don't have to worry about it. And we don't have to worry about putting the robot back together, and getting new code to work, etc.

It's those upgrade ideas we started having Monday night that are worrying me

[RoboMom]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

I think that one simple statement is just as, or maybe even more important & slightly disturbing than debating what is actually included in the 40lbs.

Update: Apparently the FTA's have received some guidance to pass on locally. I am looking forward to learning from the actual experiences of the Week 1 regionals.

[JesseK]

Heh, we'll be apart of that week 1 learning process

We're taking our 16-lb electronics board, some spare electronics (4lbs), our shooter (9 lbs), some lexan covers (4 lbs). The rest will be used mainly for accessories rookies should find useful, including #35 chain, 180-lb programmers, 20 lbs worth of code and firmware updates, spare bumper materials, etc.

We planned ahead and sent all of our wired spare motors, mounts, and transmissions (etc) in the crate.

We're withholding our Crab Modules. We're going to set them up on a kit chassis to do some more traction control work, as well as other various work bits.

Oh, also our shooter. Should be fun times.

[Mike Betts]

Originally Posted by RoboMom

...I get heartburn when veteran mentors whom I respect are still trying to figure out what the rules are...

Jenny,

Not half as much heartburn as the veteran mentors who hope they did the right thing!

Mike

[Kims Robot]

Now Im confused:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=12029

So batteries (even with soldered, crimped, attached, etc electrical leads on them) are considered COTS/Non-Fabricated, but spare motors with soldered wires (often used to help the poor rookie team who didnt know they could burn out a motor) are FABRICATED??

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=12033

It seems to me (like Eric O'Brien stated) that "fabricated" is now being much more loosely interpreted than I expected... I didnt think that scratching the cover of a motor, or using sharpie on it would make it a fabricated item...

And then changing the pinion gear does not make it a Fabricated Item??
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11950

I get the intent of this rule, but I worry about how to enforce it and what it means for those teams who always used to run over to other teams to grab spare material. We always used to bring a box of random raw material to share with teams or use ourselves to the regional, but now Im scared that if we do and it is not in pristine "ordered from the factory" condition, that they will count it towards our withholding weight.

Maybe we could petition FIRST/the regionals to let us contribute to a "spares" bucket when we walk in the door and make a pile of extra parts that any teams could use as needed, even if they are "Fabricated" per FIRST's terms.

[rcflyer620]

cRio board which we made modular for easy removal.
Camera system for further testing on a second robot,
Drivers station.
Some Lexan panels so they can be lettered and logos applied.
Spare wheels.
Everything else is COTS.

[dlavery]

Kim -
You need to read each question/answer carefully and take care to not insert assumptions about information that is not there.

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

Now Im confused:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=12029

So batteries (even with soldered, crimped, attached, etc electrical leads on them) are considered COTS/Non-Fabricated, but spare motors with soldered wires (often used to help the poor rookie team who didnt know they could burn out a motor) are FABRICATED??

The referenced question asked specifically about spare batteries. It did not say anything about batteries plus leads plus connectors. There is no contradiction here (and before anyone starts yelling "hey, all batteries are used with leads and connectors, so of course that was implied!" remember that all batteries should be shipped without the leads/connectors installed; so the answer does not make any assumptions about what was implied - only what was asked).

It seems to me (like Eric O'Brien stated) that "fabricated" is now being much more loosely interpreted than I expected... I didnt think that scratching the cover of a motor, or using sharpie on it would make it a fabricated item...

And then changing the pinion gear does not make it a Fabricated Item??
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11950

Again, be careful to read the question/answer carefully. It discussed both a potential change to a motor, and the legality of a COTS transmission. Don't confuse the two. I don't see any place in the answer that indicates a motor with a changed pinion would not be considered a fabricated item.

-dave


.

[Craig Roys]

The FP 9015 motor with the pinion for the AM Planetary is available as a COTS item:

http://www.andymark.biz/am-0316.html

On a side note: for being told not to lawyer the rules, there seems to be a lot of lawyering going on by the GDC. When you have to read "very carefully" what EXACTLY is asked and what EXACTLY is answered and there is still confusion among many veteran teams then something is wrong with the set up. There has to be an easier way to explain things - I don't believe that most of these teams are trying to "break", "bend", "lawyer", or "get around" any of these rules; we're just trying to figure out what the heck they mean. That being said, near as I can wrap my brain around the rules, I believe we are within the bumper rules and the 40 lb withholding allowance.

Just my $0.02. Here's to hoping the game is as fun as it appears it will be. Despite these comlications I am looking forward to the game.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by dlavery

I don't see any place in the answer that indicates a motor with a changed pinion would not be considered a fabricated item.

Did you see the one where an assembled Toughbox would not be a fabricated item? That one is still making my head spin.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11854

[Eric O]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Kim -

The referenced question asked specifically about spare batteries. It did not say anything about batteries plus leads plus connectors. There is no contradiction here (and before anyone starts yelling "hey, all batteries are used with leads and connectors, so of course that was implied!" remember that all batteries should be shipped without the leads/connectors installed; so the answer does not make any assumptions about what was implied - only what was asked).


-dave


.

Dave,

If you are stating that the correct interpretation to the battery question is that the battery is without leads, you imply that a battery with leads is different and therefore does count toward the 40 lbs.

Yes, it is true that a shipped battery does not have leads on it, however, a shipped battery means nothing to this discussion about what is being carried into the event. I can't remember my team ever bringing in a battery without leads on it.

I would assume that the GDC does not intend for batteries with leads to count toward a teams 40lbs of stuff, however, most of my assumptions this year have been proven wrong in the Q&A. I guess I will have to wait and see on this one.

-Eric