Musings from a FIRST Inspector for 2009

[lukevanoort]

Originally Posted by Russ Beavis

The duct tape question has already tripped up a few inspectors. Very interesting...

I don't want to give away the ending for those who have not yet taken the test (although a quick search on the FIRST Q&A will provide the answer).

Russ

That really worries me. It may be only one rule, and, hopefully, a relatively inconsequential one, but it implies that potential inspectors are not actually reading the manual (not carefully anyway), and just going off of past experience.

[EricVanWyk]

Originally Posted by lukevanoort

That really worries me. It may be only one rule, and, hopefully, a relatively inconsequential one, but it implies that potential inspectors are not actually reading the manual (not carefully anyway), and just going off of past experience.

It is worrisome, but put yourself in their shoes. They have a document that only lists the rules for this year. They don't have a document that lists the rules that aren't for this year. It is easier to add knowledge - a single line of text can do that. It is harder to subtract - you have to read the entire thing and not find it, you can not simply point to a specific line.

Fortunately, we have quizzes to help subtract.

[Justin Stiltner]

A point to consider is that many of your inspectors have been involved in first far longer than you have, and the rules over the years have changed, however from year to year the changes are usually very small, and some have been long standing rules, such as the tape rule that has been in the manual since 2000 (when I started) and it was taken to be a given. Usually it is these rules that stand out, the changed rules that we must really study, and as said before, subtract from our mental list. Think of it this way, the speed limit near your home has probably been the same your whole life, if it were to change and you saw the sign about the change you would obey it, however if you 2 days later were just running down the street to a friends house it would be second nature for you to go the old speed limit, until you trained yourself not to. Think of the problem you sometimes have in math when you are subtracting a negative number and end up actually subtracting, and not adding, its a small mistake that is very common.

P.S. if you have something mounted or secured with duct tape, don't you think you could have done done it a little "better" ?

[Racer26]

To answer your P.S. justin, that entirely depends on what the object being secured is, the method of taping, and even the type of tape used. Some objects could be better or more easily secured with duct tape than another method due to odd shapes requiring heavy adaptive mounting rigs or what have you, where duct tape might be acceptably secure, and substantially lighter.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

In previous years, tape was excluded from use as a fastener and Inspectors and significant others were under the belief that Duct Tape in particular was not to appear on robots. Dave Lavery pointed out last year, that no rule existed that prevented the use of duct tape, it was a myth. That being said, the appropriate use of any fastener is a concern for inspectors. Choose wisely!

[ntroup]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Dave Lavery pointed out last year, that no rule existed that prevented the use of duct tape, it was a myth.

I am not sure that is correct, Al. From the 2008 Competition Manual, "The Robot-REV G":

R38> Adhesive backed tapes shall not be used as a structural fastener, or to connect two or
more parts together. Adhesive backed tapes may only be used as follows:
- Textured or coated tapes may be used to provide an alternate surface finish or treatment to a
portion of the ROBOT.
- Velcro tape, any hook and loop tape or double-sided sticky foam may be used for attaching
components to the ROBOT.
- Reflective tape may be used with optical sensors in small amounts.
- Adhesive backed tape and labels may be used for labeling purposes on wires, cables,
pneumatic lines, etc.
- Electrical tape may be used as an electrical insulator.

That seems pretty cut-and-dry, and not mythical.

This year, on the other hand, that rule does not exist.

-Nate

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Nate,
I was specifically relating to duct tape. We had for years prevented teams from using duct tape in any manner thinking it was an unspoken rule from Dean and Woodie. Dave pointed out our error last year.

[eugenebrooks]

From the 2004 inspection list:

9 No tape used as a fastener. No Duct Tape. 5.2.5-R14

And from the robot rules:
<R14> Electrical tape may only be used as an electrical insulator. Velcro tape or double-sided sticky foam may
be used for attaching components to the robot. Adhesive-backed cable mounts may be used. Small
amounts of reflective tape may be used for counting wheel revolutions. Adhesive backed labels may be
used for labeling purposes. <<<No other adhesive backed tapes are allowed.>>>


Eugene

[Wetzel]

Took the inspector test. Took me about 5 minutes, got 100%. Only one I had to really think about was the maximum pneumatic cylinder size.

Certify me!

Wetzel

[Wayne Doenges]

I just thought of another point in inspection.
Just because you bot passed inspection at one regional doesn't always mean it's legal at the next. The other inspector may have missed something that the next inspector doesn't.
So don't tell the inspector "It can't be wrong, it passed at XXXX Regional."

Thanks you and have a great regional

[martin417]

Fictional or real, were bit by the "no duct tape" rule last year. Having read the rule stating that

Adhesive backed tapes shall not be used as a structural fastener, or to connect two or more parts together.

we assumed that we could seal a duct (our bot used a vacuum as a ball manipulator) with aluminum duct tape as long as we didn't use it to attach two or more parts together. Our inspector made us poke holes in the tape so it would leak, then we used some putty (strip caulk) to seal it back up. It seemed silly, but I guess rules are rules...

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

That being said, the appropriate use of any fastener is a concern for inspectors. Choose wisely!

What Al said !!

Adhesive fasteners and tape are being allowed this year. IF everyone uses these materials correctly then it could be assumed that they will likely be used in the future. IF people get silly and stupid and negatively impact this year then it is likely the tape rule return and we will all be the worse off for it.

I like the rule as it currently stands. There is something on our bot that simply could not be done better than with a 3" wide piece of vinyl tape.

[Rick TYler]

Originally Posted by Justin Stiltner

P.S. if you have something mounted or secured with duct tape, don't you think you could have done done it a little "better" ?

I don't know. My father the retired electrical engineer said that he doesn't think he was ever involved in a rocket or missile launch in which there wasn't "ordnance tape" somewhere in the machine.

[Rick Wagner]

I build spacecraft for a living, and every one that I've seen has lots of mylar and kapton tape on it, generally used for holding thermal insulation. It's the best solution for that application that's been found so far. Velcro and sewing are also used.

[Kitmor]

I would say that if you have used duct tape or any kind of tape for that matter on your robot this year. It may be a good idea to bring a printed copy of this Q and A answer: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11992 with you to your regionals.
Just one more piece of proof that there is no rule against tapes this year, if you have trouble.