Batteries Carried Into Competitions

[Justin Stiltner]

Depending on how you look at it, your leads with terminals crimped to the end could be considered a fabricated part, so you would need to not have that on there, but then if you just cut your terminals off, you have modified that lead into a non off the shelf state, so its still fabricated.

Actually if you want to further extend this idea, if your bringing in nuts and bolts, they would need to be separated, no nuts threaded onto bolts, unless you bought them that way.

To me, it sounds like this rule is being enforced a bit too harshly when it forces teams to start doing things like this.

HOWEVER, if you read the rule, and take its literal meaning, then it looks like we have been breaking the rules for a few years now, without realizing it. It is there in black and white, and has been for a few years now. If this is not changed before competition, you could take the leads off your batteries, then at that point the only fabricated parts are the leads for the batteries (you crimped ends on them) so only those would count in the weight, Rather than the whole battery. Also never hurts to check out the connections on your old batteries to make sure they are still good, etc (gotta look on the bright side sometimes)

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by Justin Stiltner

Also never hurts to check out the connections on your old batteries to make sure they are still good, etc (gotta look on the bright side sometimes)

I was thinking the same thing....I know we've had trouble with the terminals not being fully tightened, and coming loose.

We really have to get that big crimper, and do it right. This might be the excuse we needed.

[Racer26]

I just can't see any good reason for the GDC to all of a sudden start making calls that are SUBSTANTIALLY different than what has been the norm for many years. Teams bring batteries with anderson connectors attached. Thats the way it's always been. Why change it? Even all the bumper nonsense. If you ask me, the rules on the bumpers, as originally written in the book were not intended to be substantially different from last year. People asked questions to clarify, and the GDC goes and basically changed everything. Its silly.

[Craig Roys]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

I just can't see any good reason for the GDC to all of a sudden start making calls that are SUBSTANTIALLY different than what has been the norm for many years. Teams bring batteries with anderson connectors attached. Thats the way it's always been. Why change it? Even all the bumper nonsense. If you ask me, the rules on the bumpers, as originally written in the book were not intended to be substantially different from last year. People asked questions to clarify, and the GDC goes and basically changed everything. Its silly.

It's more than just silly - it's absolutely ridiculous. You can't tell me that having every team remove and replace battery leads at every competition was the intent of this rule. As I stated in a previous post in another thread, the GDC is doing exactly what they've told us not to do - lawyer the rules instead of judging their intent. They seem to have lost touch with what the competition is about. FIRST is going to start losing members if they continue down this path. What is inpirational about removing and replacing battery leads at every competition just to comply with some asinine ruling. I hope nobody wrote year or battery numbers on their battery - that would mean that they are now modified and no longer COTS parts. If you try to remove the marker, you might scratch the surface so it will no longer be a COTS part. Unbelievable.

[eugenebrooks]

Come on guys and gals. The GDC has ruled that batteries (alone) don't count against the withholding allowance. If you shipped your batteries and cables in the crate you have to assemble them in the pit, and if you didn't you still have to assemble them in the pit. There isn't anything to complain about on this front. It is a good idea to go over all those connections anyway, there are a lot of loose battery connections at competitions.

In my opinion, a lot of these rules adjustments result from pressing the GDC to clarify, and then clarify some more, instead of just letting common sense guide the interpretation of the rules. I wouldn't accuse the GDC of lawyering. It would appear that teams force them into corners with the constant challenges, and many of the responses are guided by the need to avoid the next corner.

The only rub here is that the unplanned impact of the weight of the cables on the withholding allowance is unfortunate. If you are impacted by this, you can solve the problem with COTS battery cables, they are available from AndyMark. You can also have a team that is way under the allowance bring the battery cables in for you. We would certainly do it for you, and we are way under our allowance because we shipped our entire robot, battery set, and cables in the crate. No doubt someone will worry about the legality of teams helping each other in this manner, and will ask the GDC about it. More power to you...

The most amusing thing about all of this is the fact that batteries and cables don't count towards the weight of the robot!

Eugene

[jamie_1930]

Just for some more clarification, if you bring batteries to the competiton and already have the connections tied in, then the weight of those batteries will be considered part of your withholding allowance, but you can bring as many batteries as you want as long as you assemble the connections at the competition. It just sounds a little wierd and were hoping to bring as many batteries as we can so can someone tell me if this is right or not

[ZakuAce]

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

In my opinion, a lot of these rules adjustments result from pressing the GDC to clarify, and then clarify some more, instead of just letting common sense guide the interpretation of the rules. I wouldn't accuse the GDC of lawyering. It would appear that teams force them into corners with the constant challenges, and many of the responses are guided by the need to avoid the next corner.

Completely agree. This is the same reason I always get mad at people asking teachers how long a paper has to be, then whine because they say it is too long. You should not have asked in the first place!

[wilsonmw04]

Here is what I'm going to do:
1. I'm going to email my VirginiaFIRST rep and protest the ruling.

2. I'm not going to have my team remove the leads from the batteries. They are going to arrive at VCU, as they are now, in a black tote labeled "batteries." IF someone wants to check them as we arrive, they are more than welcome to do it. If the inspector informs us that they are illegal (Personally, I don't think that's going to happen.), we will remove the leads and put them back on 5 minutes later.

Yes, this may not be completely 'GP', but a little civil disobedience now and then isn't such a bad thing.

[Craig Roys]

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

Come on guys and gals. The GDC has ruled that batteries (alone) don't count against the withholding allowance. If you shipped your batteries and cables in the crate you have to assemble them in the pit, and if you didn't you still have to assemble them in the pit. There isn't anything to complain about on this front. It is a good idea to go over all those connections anyway, there are a lot of loose battery connections at competitions.

In my opinion, a lot of these rules adjustments result from pressing the GDC to clarify, and then clarify some more, instead of just letting common sense guide the interpretation of the rules. I wouldn't accuse the GDC of lawyering. It would appear that teams force them into corners with the constant challenges, and many of the responses are guided by the need to avoid the next corner.

The only rub here is that the unplanned impact of the weight of the cables on the withholding allowance is unfortunate. If you are impacted by this, you can solve the problem with COTS battery cables, they are available from AndyMark. You can also have a team that is way under the allowance bring the battery cables in for you. We would certainly do it for you, and we are way under our allowance because we shipped our entire robot, battery set, and cables in the crate. No doubt someone will worry about the legality of teams helping each other in this manner, and will ask the GDC about it. More power to you...

The most amusing thing about all of this is the fact that batteries and cables don't count towards the weight of the robot!

Eugene

That's all fine and dandy, but don't tell us not to lawyer the rules when they turn around and lawyer them themselves (regardless of the reason they are doing it). Especially when its happening now - there are teams getting ready for competition next week and now they have this stupid rule (that has no good reason to exist) to contend with.

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

Come on guys and gals. The GDC has ruled that batteries (alone) don't count against the withholding allowance. If you shipped your batteries and cables in the crate you have to assemble them in the pit, and if you didn't you still have to assemble them in the pit. There isn't anything to complain about on this front. It is a good idea to go over all those connections anyway, there are a lot of loose battery connections at competitions.

What if you spent a few days making sure every one of your batteries is done correctly? This ruling is absurd.

[Mike Soukup]

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

In my opinion, a lot of these rules adjustments result from pressing the GDC to clarify, and then clarify some more, instead of just letting common sense guide the interpretation of the rules. I wouldn't accuse the GDC of lawyering. It would appear that teams force them into corners with the constant challenges, and many of the responses are guided by the need to avoid the next corner.

Considering that the Q&A is meant to clarify rules, not create them, the ruling that batteries with cables are non-COTS has always existed, so if we used our common sense to infer that batteries with cables were COTS we were unknowingly breaking the existing rules. The questions that teams have asked building up to this ruling have been attempts to clarify that our original common sense understanding was indeed correct and there were inconsistencies with the Q&A's responses, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

You can also have a team that is way under the allowance bring the battery cables in for you. We would certainly do it for you, and we are way under our allowance because we shipped our entire robot, battery set, and cables in the crate. No doubt someone will worry about the legality of teams helping each other in this manner, and will ask the GDC about it. More power to you...

I don't understand how this could be legal. If it were, three teams could bring in three separate parts of a new robot, bolt it together, then have one team compete with it. My common sense tells me that's not what the withholding allowance is for. Since your common sense tells you one thing & my common sense tells you another, it looks like we need a clarification.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by jamie_1930

Just for some more clarification, if you bring batteries to the competiton and already have the connections tied in, then the weight of those batteries will be considered part of your withholding allowance, but you can bring as many batteries as you want as long as you assemble the connections at the competition. It just sounds a little wierd and were hoping to bring as many batteries as we can so can someone tell me if this is right or not

I believe you have accurately summarized the GDC's current position on fabricated battery assemblies. I myself don't think it's "right", but it's in the rules.

[kborer22]

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

Come on guys and gals. The GDC has ruled that batteries (alone) don't count against the withholding allowance. If you shipped your batteries and cables in the crate you have to assemble them in the pit, and if you didn't you still have to assemble them in the pit. There isn't anything to complain about on this front. It is a good idea to go over all those connections anyway, there are a lot of loose battery connections at competitions.

In my opinion, a lot of these rules adjustments result from pressing the GDC to clarify, and then clarify some more, instead of just letting common sense guide the interpretation of the rules. I wouldn't accuse the GDC of lawyering. It would appear that teams force them into corners with the constant challenges, and many of the responses are guided by the need to avoid the next corner.

The only rub here is that the unplanned impact of the weight of the cables on the withholding allowance is unfortunate. If you are impacted by this, you can solve the problem with COTS battery cables, they are available from AndyMark. You can also have a team that is way under the allowance bring the battery cables in for you. We would certainly do it for you, and we are way under our allowance because we shipped our entire robot, battery set, and cables in the crate. No doubt someone will worry about the legality of teams helping each other in this manner, and will ask the GDC about it. More power to you...

The most amusing thing about all of this is the fact that batteries and cables don't count towards the weight of the robot!

Eugene

For teams like us (and im sure there are many out there) who will be attending our first regional literally 1.5 miles from home (boston) this is a huge pain. Were certainly not going to ship out batteries a mile and half when we could just drive them over. Not to mention we have already cut our terminals to length and heat shrunk them. Why should we have to buy more terminals from andymark? Also you want to minimize the 6 AWG wire on your robot so if were were to connect a full length terminal we would be really stressing the wire and connections on the battery and at the connector end.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by Mike Soukup

Considering that the Q&A is meant to clarify rules, not create them, the ruling that batteries with cables are non-COTS has always existed, so if we used our common sense to infer that batteries with cables were COTS we were unknowingly breaking the existing rules. The questions that teams have asked building up to this ruling have been attempts to clarify that our original common sense understanding was indeed correct and there were inconsistencies with the Q&A's responses, not the other way around.

The GDC doesn't just interpret the rules they write them. They could easily say that this is the letter of rule but it will be changed in the next update.

What they have ruled is totally insane.

[martin417]

The real pain here is that this came out AFTER the bot was shipped. We had our allowance planned already, and it didn't include the batteries. If we had known, we could have packed the batteries into the crate and saved the pain. I don't understand the logic here. Regardless of the wording of the rules, based on past experience, this is a rule change, not a clarification.