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Unread 22-02-2009, 14:12
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Re: Look at the Big Picture

I do agree with you Sean on pretty much all levels. Being a part of FIRST, our team has had its fair share of unexpected and generally dissatisfying moments (very few of which were caused directly by FIRST itself). However, I like to look at those moments as tests of our drive and continued effort even in the face of, dare I say, failure. There are some lessons which FIRST try to teach us, but are ones that we have to learn for ourselves--that it's okay to lose, that sometimes life throws things your way which you can not get rid of but will have to learn to deal with eventually. Perhaps all of this silly ruling stuff is just another hidden message on FIRST's agenda... One can only hope!

Also, just one other thing, perhaps it would be better for you to just quote the text from the post you referred to, rather than the post itself? I know you don't want to put anybody on the spot, and I can't help but think that the original poster might feel that way.
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Unread 22-02-2009, 15:18
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Re: Look at the Big Picture

It's good to have threads like this to remind us of what's really important, of the big picture.

I've seen and heard things from both sides of the aisle; as both a student and eventual mentor, but also what happens behind the scenes. Sometimes students and mentors take their concerns way too far. Other times, FIRST makes decisions that the general community decides is not in their best interest. So how do we fix this? What about many teams perceiving this year as not as much fun as previous years? How do we fix this as well?

While it may not seem that way, these two issues go hand in hand. I really say my favorite games - the ones which seemed the most fun - were the ones back in the day. Before they added mandatory bumpers and anti-wedge rules and [several dozen other rules] and had games like FIRST Frenzy, which IMHO was probably the pinnacle of an awesome FRC game. Back then, teams seemed so much more willing to accept creativity as creativity and not as "lawyering the rules", and FIRST seemed to admit their mistakes better (such as extending the build season by two days in 2004).

Now it all seems too strict and regimented nowadays, and that anytime you try thinking creatively outside of the box you are deemed to be "lawyering the rules". So all this pent up creativity gets thrust into the smallest openings in the rules possible, and rulings are made which gets everyone angry about people "lawyering the rules". It's a viscous cycle.

If we really want to see a really fun year, everyone - both teams and the GDC - need to lighten up. From the GDC: give teams an insane game like 2004 with tons of options and variety, and lighten up the rules a little bit. Like eliminate mandatory bumpers* - if a team decides not to use them and their frame gets bent into a banana, then it's their fault for not using bumpers or not building a strong enough frame. Then explicitly write in the rules that the GDC is placing a higher level of trust and responsibility on teams; and that if they make choices which end up negatively affecting their performance they do so at their own risk. One great example of this was finally relaxing the tape rule this year. (I'll be using the rule to put a piece of duct tape over a mounting hole for an optional second FP motor in a unibody gearbox to keep grease from flying out ).

From teams: don't [non-constructively] criticize FIRST, and for the sake of creativity and imagination STOP yelling at people for lawyering the rules if they want to think outside of the box. Don't take everything so seriously and learn to laugh things off. If the GDC does relax the rules a bit, be really creative again!

This won't be easy, but the only way this will work is if both sides agree to this. Once there is a good level of trust built up again between teams and the GDC, we hopefully won't see as many firestorms in the future. ;-)


* I have to admit, I'm not a big fan of [over]-simplifying the game or making it "easier" for rookies to compete. Look at the what many consider to be the best teams in FIRST nowadays; they were rookies once. And it was definitely a lot harder back then to even make a robot drive. But somehow, they not only began to survive, they really thrived.

So rather than over simplify the game, increase the resources available for them. Suppliers like AndyMark are a great way to do this. Another great way is to have FIRST communicate with large sponsors in a specific region, and get that large company to set up a regional grant program, to which area teams who are in need of resources can apply to. This was done this season in Connecticut by Northeast Utilities. Or maybe get a company like Sears or Home Depot or Lowe's to donate a $250 gift card to all teams, so that the rookie or lower resource teams can finally buy that drill press or band saw they've been eying for years.

If teams perceive that FIRST is really looking out for them, and that FIRST is really trying to help them, they'll be much more willing to overlook or accept unfavorable rulings for what they are.
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Unread 22-02-2009, 02:18
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Re: Look at the Big Picture

As one of the first to complain about the battery rule, I find this to be an excellent post reminding us to keep everything in perspective.

In the grand scheme of things the GDC does a pretty good job of writing rules give how many scrutinizing eyes there are trying to pick them apart.

I agree that it is also very important to keep any complaints focused on the rules and not the writers. They are not writing these rules in an attempt to anger as many teams as possible. They are writing the rules as they believe they are necessary to see the game played as they intended. If there are ways you think they could improve their process (their is a pretty good post regarding intent in one of the battery threads) make sure to note it and express it at your Team Forum following the season.
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Unread 22-02-2009, 02:20
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Re: Look at the Big Picture

Most people involved in something like robotics are logical people. Wen we have an issue, be it with a rule, person, action, etc. we tend to complain. This is normal with anyone. Lately we've all had issues with some of the rules. So we complain. Yes, some of the complaining lately has been a little... over the top, harsh and the like. However, it's just words, just posts. We're not firebombing the FIRST headquarters or anything like that.

You're right, some of the complaining has been out of line, however, the GDC needs to know that we're unhappy with some of the rulings. Hopefully they'll change they're mind because they see how unhappy we are. If they don't, then we'll just deal with it.
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Unread 22-02-2009, 02:36
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Re: Look at the Big Picture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyik View Post
However, it's just words, just posts.
This seems to me to be the attitude that often develops when one is sitting behind a computer, hundreds of miles away from the person we are addressing. Many people will type things online that they would never say directly to the same person face-to-face.

Words can hurt people, often times far worse than violence can. To say that "it's just words, just posts" is a gross underestimation of the effect that words can have on people.

I agree that it is important that we express our dissatisfaction with rules that we feel need to be changed, but it is important to do it in the right way. If you really want a rule changed, the best way to go about it is to step back and attempt to review the situation from a third party perspective, then voice your complaints using specific reasoning that you dislike the rule and ways that it could be changed to resolve your issues.

Bringing personal attacks into the equation is not a good way to communicate your problem. Why would someone want to help resolve your issues if you're attacking them?
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Unread 22-02-2009, 02:54
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Re: Look at the Big Picture

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Originally Posted by Vikesrock View Post
This seems to me to be the attitude that often develops when one is sitting behind a computer, hundreds of miles away from the person we are addressing. Many people will type things online that they would never say directly to the same person face-to-face.

Words can hurt people, often times far worse than violence can. To say that "it's just words, just posts" is a gross underestimation of the effect that words can have on people.
Saying something is "just words" isn't what I meant. Nothing is ever "just" anything. What I wanted to say was that it was words and debates, not irrational actions, that were going on.

We've all only just gotten out of build season, which as we all know, is highly stressful. We all need a bit of rest before we go onto competition. After that, maybe things will have blown over and settled down. I doubt anyone here will listen to that, as we're all far to into this thing.
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Unread 22-02-2009, 02:42
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Re: Look at the Big Picture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyik View Post
However, it's just words, just posts.
The written word can be a very powerful tool. The term, Gracious Professionalism, is used a lot in threads throughout the fora in ChiefDelphi during the year, from season to season. Those are just words. But they can become actions as discussed in posts written about how teams conduct themselves on the field, during competition, off the field, in the stands, as peers...

The thing about Gracious Professionalism is that it isn't a couple of words we can pull out when things are going well, when we've had enough rest, when we aren't concerned about the upcoming competitions, when everyone is just fine and dandy. Gracious Professionalism is a way of conducting oneself even when it's the end of build, people are on edge, there is a discussion regarding one of the rules in the game manual, and the first regionals/competitions begin very soon. How we conduct ourselves in ChiefDelphi doesn't come with an on and off switch, and Gracious Professionalism doesn't come with an on and off switch, either. There are appropriate words, tones, and attitudes that can be used when voicing concerns or frustrations and many of the posts that have been written this season and the past few days are lacking in these areas. Teams have spent a lot of money to compete in the FRC competition. It is a tough time economically for many. There are a lot of new aspects to the 2009 game. All of this can mount up and build into edginess and concern. Understanding that is not hard to do. However, even under difficult circumstances, we can work to communicate effectively, professionally, and with civility.
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Unread 22-02-2009, 15:31
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Re: Look at the Big Picture

Perhaps some of the frustrations being expressed in regarding the battery ruling are due to the belief that the GDC is acting in a completely arbitrary manner. I haven't seen any posts trying to provide rationale for effectively penalizing teams for transporting batteries to events with the connectors attached. So, consider this:

If you shipped batteries in your crate with Anderson connectors attached, you are violating the shipping requirements (See Section 4.2.2). Batteries are to be shipped in the original packaging with foam covering the battery terminals to protect from shorting. This is a regulatory matter for safe transportation of dangerous goods - not something that the GDC created just to hassle teams. Anderson connectors clearly cannot be installed on the batteries and meet this requirement. If you transport batteries via air, they must be packed as specified in Section 4.2.2 (original packing materials, terminals protected, etc.).

Teams that properly ship batteries in their crate will need to re-attach the connectors at the event. Should teams who carry-in batteries to the event be allowed the advantage of having the connectors already in place? Just a thought...

If FIRST does not rescind this ruling (or make exceptions for batteries), there will be a lot of grumbling at the events. I don't like that there will be additional work to do on Thursday, but our team will comply. I worry that enforcement of this ruling will present more challenges to inspectors and other event personnel. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the level of enforcement will vary from event-to-event, which will cause even more frustration. Oh well...
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